Graphic Design or Communication?

Ian @ B Design said:
Granted, I'm not denying that. And I would have been shocked if you hadn't taken his side. All I'm trying to get across is that Berry's opinion is just that. He may have experience but that doesn't make him right and I think that sometimes it's a case of what he says goes on this forum.

Print is not dead, far from it. All of my previous colleagues work in print. They are doing fine. If anything the ones who have struggled are coders. People will always need print. And my point is that it will work alongside digital media.

I'm sorry I don't agree with the messiah, but I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to give an opinion and thats what I have done.

The reason I am setting up on my own is because the company I worked for made mistakes with their coding setup, lost a lot of money setting up abroad and made a big group of us redundant, including my partner (waiting for the 'that's because she can't code' response). THAT'S why I don't have a site yet. And if I did, I wouldn't put it on here to be torn to pieces by the God like Berry because of his vast experience on the subject. If anyone is going to stop people coming in to graphic design as a career he could make more money doing that than coding. He's doing more harm than good on here.
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You're implying I can't make my own decisions and have my own opinions. That's so far from the truth, you will see from my own posts that I'm quite happy to disagree, even with Berry.

We are at a transition period in design, a stage similar to that when the computer came along and people who had been using pen and ink for years found that they were behind the times as the new generation came along with their computers and took over their jobs unless they adapted quickly.

The original poster wanted to know in essence about job prospects and several of us have said to go for code over the options he listed. It's not just to be difficult or anything else, it's a simple fact about where design is HEADING, not where it is now. How long is a degree course, 3 to 4 years meaning that if you use my estimate and the op gets a job straight out of uni he would at best see 2 years before finding his job either obsolete or marginalised. 10-20 years ago I'm sure the same debate went on about how pen and ink would never be replaced by the computer, just look at how it is now, pen and ink is very rarely used for final production pieces, yes most of us still use it for sketching ideas but that's not the same as what you present to a client.

In regards to your site's code being ripped to shreds, it wouldn't be Berry it would likely be Harry who does that, even Berry will agree when I say Harry is one of the best coders (no offence intended to the others) on this forum and Harry really likes tidy code and will quite happily say your code is poor :)


And just a side thought, if your partner is as good as you say she is, why didn't she pick up on the issues with the CODE on the previous company site and tell the bosses, especially when you make it sound like it's the code's fault? IF the code was as bad as you say it was and it caused the issues then it should have been quite obvious to a good coder and should have at the least been brought up with the management. (Note I'm not saying your partner is a bad coder)

Therefore, you can't blame poor coding when it's most likely the management who made the decisions, ultimately they say what they want the code to do and that is what caused them to have to fire people. At the end of the day code is code, yes some is better than others but it only does what it's been written to do, instructions which are given to the coder by the client.

PS. Personally I prefer the blunt approach to critique etc, I'd rather have someone tell me something is rubbish than beat around the bush for a week or so and then tell me a day or 2 before deadline they don't really like it. I even tell my clients at the start, if you don't like something tell me, I'd rather know sooner rather than later, because it costs them more money and it wastes my time, time I could be using on another client or even stop me from having to turn someone away due to being too busy.
 
The question asked in the first post before Ian@Bdesign started getting personal, was 'career prospects' in graphic design. At this stage of decision making for a student, if they follow this path for 3 or 4 years, by the time they exit their learning, and with the progress of technology - their prospects will be very limited. That unfortunetley is the real truth. While there will always be need for original thought, that is not enough.

" If anyone is going to stop people coming in to graphic design as a career he could make more money doing that than coding. He's doing more harm than good on here."

In response to IanB -
Less people should be coming into graphic design, there are too many design graduates who have hit a brick wall after finishing the course and very few opportunities for graduates. It's not their fault, it's just the need and skill set for employment is completely different.

If I'm doing more harm than good on here and you feel that strongly about it - you can always ask or poll the DF members to ask Greg or the Mods to kick me off the forum.
 
Berry said:
...if they follow this path for 3 or 4 years, by the time they exit their learning, and with the progress of technology - their prospects will be very limited...
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So, there'll be no need for fresh Designers in 3 or 4 years, and everyone will by default have to be code monkeys to have any sort of career?

What a load of crap.
 
Some people just can't read, neither me nor Berry have said there will be no need for a designer, we have said there will be less prospects in that field and the op would be better off going towards web coding etc due to where design is heading.
 
I did read, actually...

So there might be less prospects, fine, but who's to say that the OP won't be able to fulfill one of the designer roles that will be required?

It's like saying "There'll still be a need for designers, but it'll be too hard so don't bother, instead go into a field that you [perhaps] have absolutely no interest in"

And if you say that to everyone who wants to study graphic design, then in 3 or 4 years there'll be no new designers.

But, perhaps the main issue I have with this is, perhaps the OP has absolutely no aptitude whatsoever for coding, and zero interest? Would you just then say "Well, better off not bothering then... Try something else."

So, as I said... A load of crap.
 
wac said:

But he’s right, I’m doing Graphic Design at Uni and when I looked at UniStats.com I saw that on 8% of people graduating my course the year before I started, went on to work in the creative industry within 6 months. That number was roughly the same as the number of people who obtained 1st class degrees.
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That's all I'm saying to that, and thats NOW, not in 3-4 years time :rolleyes:
 
Out of about 30+ on our degree course, there are now less than 10 who are professional designers.

It's a stupidly low amount, but it still doesn't mean that because it's hard someone should give up before even starting Uni.

That sort of thinking will leave the industry with no fresh designers.
 
RTC said:
That sort of thinking will leave the industry with no fresh designers.
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Then I'm going to be very controversial with this statement....

There is nothing new coming from fresh designers, all they're doing is rehashing older techniques, the older designers can already do this, some of them have probably done it already.

Just look at the glossy finishes, the grafitti finishes, they've all been done before just that the new generation just didn't see it (same with fashion and home furnishings/tech if you ignore the tech used) :rolleyes:

Tell me what is fresh that HAS NOT been done before.....
 
RTC said:
Out of about 30+ on our degree course, there are now less than 10 who are professional designers.

It's a stupidly low amount, but it still doesn't mean that because it's hard someone should give up before even starting Uni.

That sort of thinking will leave the industry with no fresh designers.
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So you must be agreeing with the load of crap if you say 60-70% of graduates don't make it as designers.

Too many designers of mediocre merit coming out of Uni and not enough jobs for them at graduate level. Been the same story for over 20 years. Nothing new there then.

The industry doesn't need fresh designers with an overblown attitude and underwhelming portfolio, it need designers who can code, design, do finished artwork, understand typography, print processes,write copy, take photographs and be bang up to speed with the real world. As well as knowing how to produce a piece of work that that has substance over style.
 
You're not being controversial. You're being idiotic.

What you're suggesting is the extinction of graphic designers, i.e. that there should be no more to replace those who will, at some point, retire out of the industry because "nothing new comes from fresh designers"

Graphic design, as a career, isn't there just to fulfil some elitist fantasy that if young designers aren't producing anything "new" (if there is such a thing) then there's no place for them in the industry. Designers now are re-hashing things that others did ten years ago, who re-hashed things done ten years before them. Does that mean we should all just go "Oh well, we're not producing anything new so let's just quit..."

It's about as much a bollocks statement as "it's too hard so don't try" in relation to getting into the industry after going to Uni now.

Berry said:
The industry doesn't need fresh designers with an overblown attitude and underwhelming portfolio, it need designers who can code, design, do finished artwork, understand typography, print processes,write copy, take photographs and be bang up to speed with the real world. As well as knowing how to produce a piece of work that that has substance over style.
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So, the industry needs designers who are, in essence, designers, coders, copywriters, photographers..?

Jack of all trades, master of none, perhaps?

And who's to judge, at this point, whether the OP will be one of those who falls by the wayside? Just because many do, why discourage someone interested in going into design as a full-time career?
 
The 'extinction of graphic designers!" Now I'd like to bring my popcorn to that showing.
It would be a good thing though eradicating a lot of graduate wannabees with no talent or ability.

"Elitist fantasy' - have you been hugging trees and throwing fire extinguishers off rooftops?
 
So, just so I get this right, you run a design agency, and want to see graphic designers removed from the industry, unless of course you judge them to have talent or ability?

Haha...

Class.

And no, I haven't been near a university, or London, for years. Absolutely naff all "tree-hugging" about what I've said.
 
How am I being idiotic, you haven't proven to me that by taking a fresh designer (in the next 5 years) is better than keeping the ones a company already has. Yes they need replacing, there's plenty out there already who are young enough to fill that role and as you've agreed the percentage is low in getting jobs as it currently stands and it will only get harder as graphic design becomes less important. Oh and don't forget that lovely catch 22 situation where they want a 'graduate' designer with a few years experience....

Companies will also just not replace leaving staff as the need for graphic design reduces, any clever company would also train up their coders to fulfil the limited graphic requirements of their work when all their main media is the web based apps for slates etc. Layout will be coded, type will be based around code, the only things they will likely need to do is basic touch up of images etc

You're also missing the key point about the argument that me and Berry are putting forward - there are better job prospects in coding rather than design. This has nothing to do with whether you need to replace staff.

Besides a company doesn't need to take on a uni grad to do design, anybody with a pc/mac can get into design these days (just look at crowd sourcing), yes they need training but as Berry I'm sure will agree, going to uni doesn't necessarily teach you what you need to be a good technical designer. A course follows set guidelines, they don't teach everything. I will also bet that in the next few years designers will go back to the older approach of trying to get an apprenticeship type deal where they can learn on the job purely due to the fact that they won't be able to afford the uni fees (which are bound to be high for any design course). And trust me some of the 'design' coming out of the graphic courses at my uni when I was there was a load of rubbish, I'd seen better in high school in some cases.
 
Levi said:
Besides a company doesn't need to take on a uni grad to do design, anybody with a pc/mac can get into design these days (just look at crowd sourcing)...
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Yes, the "crowd-sourcing" of the GAP identity went really well, didn't it?

"Anybody with a pc/mac can get into design these days..."

And therein lies the last statement from you that I'll take seriously, because a PC or Mac, as well as Creative Suite or Quark, are tools for a Designer, not the basis of a Designer. And anyone that believes that it is clearly doesn't have a scooby do.

Cheers, and you all have a nice evening...
 
Levi, you talk so much sense I may have to offer you a job soon!.

RTC - are you in employed as a Graphic Designer? or are you 'freelancing' till you get a job?

It sounds to me that the big old design world hasn't been to kind to you. As it's a very one dimensional outlook on the future that is steeped in traditional old school university thinking.
 
RTC said:
Yes, the "crowd-sourcing" of the GAP identity went really well, didn't it?

"Anybody with a pc/mac can get into design these days..."

And therein lies the last statement from you that I'll take seriously, because a PC or Mac, as well as Creative Suite or Quark, are tools for a Designer, not the basis of a Designer. And anyone that believes that it is clearly doesn't have a scooby do.

Cheers, and you all have a nice evening...
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oh you're one of those type of posters, who take selective parts of a post to try and prove your point.

Now if you followed the rest of the post you'd see that I said that I actually said they would not be trained but then I was on about the option of apprenticeships. I suppose my post didn't allow you to continue on you all high and mighty pedestal....

The simple fact is that people with a pc/mac can get into design, they won't know all the technical nitty gritty but they will be familiar with the programs and this will give them a helping hand in learning from say an apprenticeship. Hell I've seen better graphic work on some forums by people who just play with photoshop etc than some that professional designers put out.

And I would also bet that 90% of the students at uni these days will have had access to the adobe suite well before going to uni. I had access to autocad r12 (iirc) and I was still in highschool. Access to software is readily available in most high schools, colleges and uni's, most of which is not the 'education' option either...
 
Berry said:
Levi, you talk so much sense I may have to offer you a job soon!.
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As much as I'm sure you could teach me a hell of a lot (especially being that you're a different field of design to me), I'm not sure I could live with being up north :p
 
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