Logo required for start up B2B research agency

J

Jamesmarsh

New Member
Hi,

I'm in the process of establishing a UK business to business research agency. I need a logotype that expresses our reliable and serious service ethos but at the same time recognises we are an innovative agency with a unique business model.

I have a limited budget, and I'm looking to pay around £100 for the development of my logo (including several design concepts and a couple of revisions).

If you are interested in getting the design brief please email or PM me with your email address and possibly a sample of your work and I'll get back to you.

Thanks,
James
 
Is it just me or does practically every job posted on here contain the words '...I have a limited budget'?

I don't wish to have a personal attack on you James but it's a bit much to expect a logo with several design concepts and revisions for £100!!

Even the design students and young designers on this forum should realise that this is exploitation.

It would be interesting to know what James plans on charging clients for the 'reliable and serious service ethos' he will be offering at his business to business research agency.
 
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Sthomas: it's no surprise most commissions on here say they have a limited budget. Nearly all small start ups genuinely do. I'm sure when you started out alone you did the things you have the skills to do yourself very well and tried to find the best value option for the rest. So you would have had a great logo and website etc, but maybe you had to negotiate to keep accountancy fees or premises costs to a minimum. Well I can do the accountancy myself but I have to keep other costs down or else I can't start my business.

For info I will be charging £35-40 per hour for research, and passing £20-25 onto my researchers.
 
Hi James,

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my earlier post.

What I'm annoyed at is that graphic designers & web designers are constantly expected to lower their prices and rates to fit in with clients who have limited budgets.

While I can understand that everyone running a business wants to save themselves money, I don't see why people think they can hire qualified and experienced graphic designers for a fee far lower than that of many other professions.

When I set-up my business, my accountant, printer or office supplier didn't care that I was a new start-up. They all had fees that I could either pay or I'd have to look elsewhere.

In the day-to day running of my studio, I couldn't approach a photographer and say I want to use their service but I have a limited budget...while there is obviously scope to find slightly cheaper alternatives, there is still a minimum fee that I'd have to pay if I wanted to hire a photographer.

While the price you are offering for a logo is definitely not the cheapest I've noticed on this forum, you're still expecting a designer to work on a series of 3 or 4 logo options, which in my estimation will take approx 8 hours (this works out roughly at £12.50 per hour).

Therefore, the question I ask you is why can you charge £35-40 per hour for your time, but you're expecting a graphic designer to work for only approximately £12.50 an hour?
 
Fair point: it's basically just another way of saying 'I'm not looking to pay the going rate for this job', isn't it?
 
This perhaps isn't the place to discuss the matter.

Whilst I understand your frustration, it's not fair to attack James or anyone else who comes here offering paying work. I whole-heartedly agree that many posts do offer an absurdly low rate, many clients probably aren't aware of the scale of work that's involved in branding a business, no matter what the size, and ultimitley it's the fault of the designers or 'designers' who do the work and undersell themselves and devalue the industry.
 
Paul Murray said:
This perhaps isn't the place to discuss the matter.

Whilst I understand your frustration, it's not fair to attack James or anyone else who comes here offering paying work. I whole-heartedly agree that many posts do offer an absurdly low rate, many clients probably aren't aware of the scale of work that's involved in branding a business, no matter what the size, and ultimitley it's the fault of the designers or 'designers' who do the work and undersell themselves and devalue the industry.
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Fair point also... although one conclusion (for another thread perhaps) is that the marketplace forum is aiding and abetting said devaluation by providing a space for exactly that kind of transaction to take place - if it's allowed to pass without comment, that is...
 
Sorry if this appears like an attack on James and the work he's offering (it wasn't meant to be).

James just happened to be in the firing line of my frustration with designers being expected to work for far less than the going rate.

However, I have to agree with Dave L on the point he raised - the marketplace on this forum does seem to be heading in the same direction as Gumtree (in that there have been some really low paying work on offer).

I don't know what the solution is - anyone have any suggestions?
 
sthomas said:
When I set-up my business, my accountant, printer or office supplier didn't care that I was a new start-up. They all had fees that I could either pay or I'd have to look elsewhere.?
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Great point well made. My business is insured. I still pay premium insurance. I still pay my accountants hourly rate. I still pay what my printer asks. So why should I quote less to get a job?

It happens all too often. I understand that as a start-up it's tough, but it's just as tough for a design start-up and I wouldn't have dreamed of asking any of the examples I listed above to lower their rates.

It's just a case of getting on with it. You have to find ways round to pay the bills. It's like the old credit card chestnut, if you cant pay for it, then don't buy it. Same applies.
 
sthomas said:
I don't know what the solution is - anyone have any suggestions?
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Yeah I've got one. Stop being so tight and pay what we deserve.

Why should we have to look for a different solution? No-one else in their right mind would. My family and bills are just as important to me as theres are to them.
 
Paul Murray said:
ultimitley it's the fault of the designers or 'designers' who do the work and undersell themselves and devalue the industry.
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I agree with this to a certain extent. It IS down to designers who do work and undersell themselves but it also isn't the fault of the designers who, like us, constantly say 'DO NOT UNDERSELL YOURSELF'.

We know that this will in time bite us on the arse, and this is another example where exactly that is happening.

I've said on here a few times 'If you value what you and we do, DO NOT apply to this request' but it keeps on happening. It is 'designers' that apply to every request for 'a job for nothing' that are putting us in this position. If we all just said 'NO...pay us what we ask' then they would have to.
 
Cheers for your comments on this Ian...it's good to hear that there are other designers on this board who don't mind saying what we've all been thinking.
 
I can understand it's hard for startups. We've all been there, but the client has one of two options:

Option 1) Go to a budget design 'shop'. Give them a 'brief' in the morning, pay 30 pounds, pick up your identity / artwork in the afternoon. Save yourself money and help the 'limited budget'.

Option 2) Find a Graphic Designer. Establish a brief and AGREE to the quote offered. Wait for the designer to work on the ideas, research your needs, establish costs and the best way to look after your identity / artwork(s). After a period of at least 2-3 weeks+ and a few meetings to ensure you are happy with the work in progress, expect a professional identity / artwork(s). Pay the agreed fee. Receive the final artwork, and do not, DO NOT expect a pleasant reply if you NOW inform the designer that you are on a limited budget. If this is the case maybe Option 1 was the better idea.
 
A defence

I honestly can't see that I have done anything wrong here. I have been up front about my budget and needs, if anyone thinks they can do me a logo within those constraints and make a profit then they should drop me an email. If on the other hand you decide that you can't really do the logo within that budget or that your business is doing well enough that you don't need to take on small projects then don't email me.

To answer the point about expecting designers to lower their prices but not other professions that is utter rubbish. When my old firm was very busy I would never consider dropping my prices, but when we were quiet, or when the client was one I wanted then I would be very willing to negotiate on price. You should speak to your service providers!
 
I don't think the replies aren't aimed specifically at you James. You came here looking for help but sadly became the unfortunate individual who got in the firing line.

Please understand that the design industry is suffering slightly at the minute due to amateurs offering sub-par work at a vastly reduced price that clients see as value for money, which sadly means professional designers' experience and expertise are being undervalued.

Obviously you're here looking for someone to design a quick logo for you within your budget, which I'm sure you will find (which in turn is the problem many of the professional members of these boards have).
 
Ian Bonner said:
Great point well made. My business is insured. I still pay premium insurance. I still pay my accountants hourly rate. I still pay what my printer asks. So why should I quote less to get a job?

It happens all too often. I understand that as a start-up it's tough, but it's just as tough for a design start-up and I wouldn't have dreamed of asking any of the examples I listed above to lower their rates.

It's just a case of getting on with it. You have to find ways round to pay the bills. It's like the old credit card chestnut, if you cant pay for it, then don't buy it. Same applies.
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Exactly, and so many people will switch to that cheaper gas company or Primark or look to the discounted book shop.

This is no different. If some people want to work at what others see as being a lower rate then let them, they can be that cheaper deal just like in any other market there is.

I do completely agree with the general notion that it can drive overall prices down and I do think it is underselling but, likewise, I still think there can be a place in the market.
 
Jamesmarsh said:
To answer the point about expecting designers to lower their prices but not other professions that is utter rubbish. When my old firm was very busy I would never consider dropping my prices, but when we were quiet, or when the client was one I wanted then I would be very willing to negotiate on price. You should speak to your service providers!
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Paul was right it wasn't specifically aimed at you, but you have just seemed to throw the cat amongst the pigeons.

You just said that when you WERE busy you would never consider dropping your prices. That's the point right there, when you WERE VERY BUSY. The problem is, is that so many clients like yourself are coming and wanting work on the cheap that it has now made the market ULTRA competitive, forcing us to drop prices because of the 'budget designers' offering work for next to nothing, making clients think that is the norm. This in turn is spreading the work, in my opinion unfairly, to pseudo designers, making us all fight for the scraps we can get. These designers are not experienced, they have a computer and can download clipart. Thats as good as it gets. The experienced designers here HAVE ALREADY dropped their rates and are now being asked to do so again to accommodate a 'limited budget'.

If we were all making a fair living out of our work then maybe we would be in a position to, as you say, occasionally drop our prices. But as you and many others want something for nothing, that now, through no fault of our own is increasingly unlikely.
 
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