Is it sometimes ok to use tables for non tabular data?

[Levi]

one of the devs computers getting a painful virus and taking it totally out of action,

check the antivirus is up to date, apart from not having one there shouldn't be a reason for your work pc's to be getting a virus

The full version of Opera doesn't default to mobile versions of sites.

Must have changed it then, the opera mobile I have does 'mobile' sites as default

 

[Jazajay]

First thing we did, it didn't pick it up, 15mins after it was noticed the screen went blue and the machine restarted itself and after the restart if you tried to open the anti virus, security centre etc... it did a pop up saying your computer is infected and it is trying to send your credit card info on-line register to remove it blar blar, however due to all the computers sharing the two in-house severs, or it may be one split, not my area, for shared files I told her to shut it down and it would have to wait as I didn't want all the stations to get infected and we had a tonne to get on with.

She's got the back up now, ha lucky her, lol, its the back up for a reason.

Anyhoo glass of wine, Spooks and NCIS LA is awaiting me tonight me thinks. (nod)

Mines the actual Opera browser not Opera mini that may be it.

 

[Levi]

First thing we did, it didn't pick it up, 15mins after it was noticed the screen went blue and the machine restarted itself and after the restart if you tried to open the anti virus, security centre etc... it did a pop up saying your computer is infected and it is trying to send your credit card info on-line register to remove it blar blar, however due to all the computers sharing the two in-house severs, or it may be one split, not my area, for shared files I told her to shut it down and it would have to wait as I didn't want all the stations to get infected and we had a tonne to get on with.

boot into safe mode and then try and run av/spyware. She must have been looking at some dodgy sites while at work, having said that it should have been picked up by the av.

Mines the actual Opera browser not Opera mini that may be it.

I have both a symbian one and a windows mobile version, both are full opera, not the opera mini

 

[Sunburn]

.... If I personally find tables beneficial (profitable, whatever) in a given situation, then 10 million frothing web standards advocates can't change that. -I- still find them helpful, or useful, or profitable.

Good for you, however, your post is nothing but flame bait in a web coding & development forum! its like being a Nazi and trying to justify the holocaust to a family of Jews. (nearest analogy I had to hand)

The professionals amongst us, prefer web standards and working to standards set by the majority of our peers. You obviously don't, We have our reasons based upon thousands of man hours, research, industry leading experts in a myriad of fields, testing, evaluation, discussing and pioneering best practise for web solutions for everyone irrespective of disability or capability, individuals or teams, charities or gov /multicorps, underpinned by us all wanting to provide the best possible solution to the problem at hand, and unless the problem is tabular data, tables are far from the best solution.

Your reasoning if I can be so blunt from reading this thread so far is you dont/cant/wont embrace the modern way of web development, based on some quasi blinkered idea that doing things in tables can be quicker and more beneficial to a client! I have delt with hundreds of clients who unfortunatly have had thier website constructed in tables, by a previous "developer" only to find that they canot change the simpliest of things easily like navigation structure or visual layout, and which in turn costs them considerably more to fix and put right, in the mid to long term.

oh well your loss.

 

[Renniks]

*pokemon style*
Sunburn, I choose YOU!
*throws sunburn pokemon into the battle and watches it destroy EVERYTHING* ^_^

 

[chrismitchell]

LOL nice one Mark.

 

[Mark Alexander]

Good for you, however, your post is nothing but flame bait in a web coding & development forum!

I never made this thread, it got split off from another.

its like being a Nazi and trying to justify the holocaust to a family of Jews. (nearest analogy I had to hand)

Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The professionals amongst us

No true Scotsman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You obviously don't, We have our reasons based upon thousands of man hours, research, industry leading experts in a myriad of fields, testing, evaluation, discussing and pioneering best practise for web solutions for everyone irrespective of disability or capability, individuals or teams, charities or gov /multicorps, underpinned by us all wanting to provide the best possible solution to the problem at hand, and unless the problem is tabular data, tables are far from the best solution.

It's the best solution for the problem I described. You're assuming that the problem is always the same, that the ultimate and primary goal is always standards compliant code. It's not.

Your reasoning if I can be so blunt from reading this thread so far is you dont/cant/wont embrace the modern way of web development, based on some quasi blinkered idea that doing things in tables can be quicker and more beneficial to a client! I have delt with hundreds of clients who unfortunatly have had thier website constructed in tables, by a previous "developer" only to find that they canot change the simpliest of things easily like navigation structure or visual layout, and which in turn costs them considerably more to fix and put right, in the mid to long term.

And this is a strawman. Where did I suggest you should use tables exclusively, or even semi-regularly. I said in certain, rare, circumstances (like vertical centring). It's easy to win an argument when you make up the other person's position.

Overall the argumentation here is pretty poor, and nobody is actually addressing what I'm saying. I'm getting almost copy and pasted standard arguments for web standards, which I already generally believe in. And not even good copy and pasted arguments at that.

Ner ner ner you're not a professional if you disagree with me is not a valid point.

 

[Renniks]

Actually, you started the topic (not the thread) by saying that it is ok to use tables

I don't think there's much wrong with using tables

The problem you gave, the vertical alignment, the best solution IS standards compliant code, for everyone except yourself it would seem. After all, it's 'quicker' to write out a table, then style that table, then to write out a div, and style that div.

And standards compliant code is currently the best code as it is the code that everyone (except IE?) is aiming towards.

You fail constantly to address the matter of accessibility, where you shrug it off and say that it is your clients choice not to address this
Have you asked them if they would like to address this and increase the project deadline by 1 day? Education is better than leaving people ignorant. And good practice is better than bad practice and blaming it on the ignorant

 

[Mark Alexander]

Can't you guys make a single argument without reverting to some sort of mob rule thing. The number of people agreeing with something is irrelevant.

Consensus doesn't make fact. The world didn't change from flat to spherical because majority opinion changed.

 

[Renniks]

How is the number of people agreeing irrelevant?

A screenreader is made to accommodate the largest amount of websites in the best possible manner
The best method for this is to aim for a standard
The current web standards are the only standards
If they aim for them, so should we

 

[Mark Alexander]

Because the number of people believing something has no effect on the truth value of that thing.

Let me make it really simple:

What is wrong with using tables if:

a) It's faster or easier for you.
b) Standards aren't a priority for you and/or the client.

The answer is obviously nothing. Your preferences are your preferences, and its fine if you want to hold them, but there is no objective argument for them, and people can't be wrong for not sharing them.

 

[Renniks]

a) Nothing - though I question why it's quicker

b) It SHOULD be a priority for the client, after all it is part of the EU's recommended web accessibility guidelines - irrelevant of whether it's a priority for you, it should be for all clients.

EDIT: people have been successfully sued for not upholding accessibility guidelines, so I'd imagine it is a priority

 

[Mark Alexander]

You can't say what should be a priority for a client, it's their priority, their preference. Telling me that the EU says I should care or hold a certain value is meaningless. It's an appeal to authority.

If the EU said tomorrow that the sky is orange I wouldn't believe it. Presumably neither would you. Probably because something isn't true simply because the EU (or any other body) says it is.

 

[chrismitchell]

Ok people lets all calm down.

 

[Sunburn]

I find it ironic that you keep referring to Wikipedia for you argument, which is in fact (wikiepedia) based upon the agreed acknowledgment that something is correct by the majority, by your very own omission this is the mob rule? and yet you use it to argue your point lol !

Kettle pot and black ... dam should be an app for that.

 

[Mark Alexander]

Actually the argument that wiki makes is valid based on its own merits, not the fact that many people believe in it. If you stated an argument that many people believed in I could address it, but what you are doing is merely stating that many people believe it, without the argument itself.

 

[Renniks]

Apologies Chris

Just infuriating when someone's only arguments involve complaining about mass acceptance, and speed of implementation.

Oh and I imagine most companies would prefer to uphold to an EU recommendation that could stop them being Sued for not having an accessible website. I imagine if asked, most of those companies would count it high up on their priority list.

 

[Mark Alexander]

I don't think anyone has ever been sued for using tables to vertically align something. Feel free to highlight such a case.

You guys haven't even made an argument against what I'm saying, you're just telling me that people disagree with me. What else can I take issue with if that's all you're going to tell me?

 

[chrismitchell]

no need to apologise to me. I just want to make sure this thread doesn't come down to name calling.

 

[Levi]

Because the number of people believing something has no effect on the truth value of that thing.

Let me make it really simple:

What is wrong with using tables if:

a) It's faster or easier for you.
b) Standards aren't a priority for you and/or the client.

The answer is obviously nothing. Your preferences are your preferences, and its fine if you want to hold them, but there is no objective argument for them, and people can't be wrong for not sharing them.

Note - not a web designer but I have done (and am doing new one) my site

But what happens if 'your' work ends up being sent to a new person as you're not the chosen coder anymore. It's fine that your work is faster for 'you' but it could end up costing the client more if they go elsewhere as it would be slower for themn. The whole point of these web standards is as far as I know to make it simple for web sites to be transferred between coders as the clients wants.

You could also argue that by not following standards you are artificially locking a client into 'your' work and this can't be good for client referrals once they figure out what you're doing, especially if one of your clients goes for a quote from someone else and finds out the issue and gets informed of the problems it may cause.

You also seem to be forgetting the benefits of a fast loading site in terms of seo, Jaz will know more, but google (and I assume bing) aslo include speed of the site as part of their criteria now. The site that started this discussion off showed just how slow tables can be and this would have a detrimental effect on it's rankings

I'm not even going into the disability act side of things, thats an area that Jaz (and I assume Harry, renniks etc are to) is far more familiar with and has done several posts about iirc