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SEO - Is This Allowed?

Discussion in 'Website Design Forum:' started by bamme, Nov 8, 2009.

  1. bamme

    bamme Senior Member

    Ive just spent ages building a big list of keywords to add to my website. Because of its layout, verbose chunks of text dont go well, and there is a sort of visual limit to the amount of copy that can feature on each page (sounds like a rubbish layout! its not, its good! just very visual :) )

    So, i want to ask - If i placed a div on my page like this:

    <div class="forSEO">
    keywords keywords keywords

    and styled it like this, so it isnt actually ON the page:

    .forSEO {

    is that 'allowed'? Will keywords still be readable by search engines?

  2. darren

    darren Member

    No, you will be blacklisted. Its a Black-Hat technique that was banned ages ago.

    Yes they read (see) the file as if you opened it in notepad.
  3. bamme

    bamme Senior Member

    okay thanks - considering i cant really add every single one of my keywords to my content, does anyone know any good 'legal' ways to add them into the html code?
  4. darren

    darren Member

    That depends on the page and content really. You need to add them in where you can but so that your site still flows and is perfectly sensible and informative to visitors. Basically write your site for people, not for bots.. works better!

    If you have a bunch of keywords relating to your site, its fair to assume that people will be searching for them. So, in that case, why would they be hidden? i.e. Why would you want to tell the search engines these words but not people? Best way is to write a few paragraphs about the page/service etc and drop in as many as you can.

    Unfortunately SEO is not a one off thing, its an ongoing thing over many months and dropping a bunch of keywords into a hidden div won't work. You need to analyse how your site is used, search terms etc and tweak your content to suit. Subtle things such as the order of keywords (even though they already match in a search) can raise you a few links higher.

    In terms of content/keywords. Initially its best to write the site for people, but tweak bits and pieces as you analyse the data associated with usage.
  5. Jazajay

    Jazajay Active Member

    Got a link?
  6. bamme

    bamme Senior Member

    Hi jazajay, I do - its currently at

    And thanks for the advice Darren - I've made use of it and tried to optimise the words in the content more. Ive also used a class=" ..keywords.. " to put my keywords in, does this 'work'/is it effective? Or is there a better place for them? Ive also tried the best to use h1, h2, h3 etc and lists, and used <strong>keyword</strong> - does this work too?.. All in all, are those the best ways to optimise code as much as i can?

    Thanks :)

  7. Mat

    Mat Junior Member

    As previously mentioned, what you're talking about is a black-hat technique called keyword-stuffing, which was picked up by the search engines and banned years ago. Hiding them using CSS has also been banned. There are no 'legal' ways to add them into the code.

    However, I think you might be struggling with the concept of SEO itself.

    Google and the other search engines aim to return the most relevant result to the search term entered, so the idea is to simply to provide content which is relevant to your site's subject.

    SEO is done on a page-by-page basis, and you should only target 1-3 (and certainly no more than 5) keywords per page. You should have no problem working that volume of keywords quite naturally into your content.
  8. Jazajay

    Jazajay Active Member

    Well to improve the on-page SEO for that page change the following ~

    <title>Untitled Document</title>
    <title>River studio creatives, web design based in....</title>

    Make the strong actually a different colour, say #666, as bolding it but keeping the colour the same is the same as cloaking, as in you are providing something for the search engine the site visitor can't see, not good and you may get penalized for doing it.

    <a id="logo" href="#homepage"></a>
    Thats pointless for everyone, the search engines, no keywords, users, no visible link, disabled ppl, it is TBH pointless.
    Change it to ~

    <a id="logo" href="#homepage"><img src="img/logo.png" alt="River studio creatives" /></a>

    As that benefits everyone then remove it from the CSS, and the H1 tag is the second most important tag when it comes to SEO, well technically 3rd, but you don't have 1 and for your home page it should be your domain name IMO.

    alt="homepage Image"
    Sorry bit side tracked from SEO but that's a decorative image so the alt attribute should be left blank, check my sticky thread on accessible web coding (Section 3) for why.

    You main text is not scrollable so it's hidden and again will get you penalized.

    Apart from that SEO wise your copy could do with improving, but that's a talent on it's own TBH as it requires getting the balance right, way too tired remind me if I haven't had a look tomoz and I'll have a look at rewording some for you.

    Hope it helps
    Blue ~ XHTML
  9. Jazajay

    Jazajay Active Member

    Right change your copy, bare in mind this is going on what you have and what I can see and I am doing it quickly but something like.....

    <h2>Welcome to RiverStudio Creatives</h2>
    <b>RiverStudio Creative is a small but busy team of freelance designers and creative's from various backgrounds</b>, brought together through a shared passion for different aspects of aesthetic and functional [what kind of design] design.

    <b>The RiverStudio Creative company was born on our decision to merge our design skill sets</b> and offer some of the most essential design services and solutions for companies in an ever more digital world. <b>Basing ourselves in the South of England [Where exactly]</b>, we’ve enjoyed injecting some vibrance into of a vast spectrum of web and none web based design projects to date. View <a href="">the RiverStudio Creative portfolio</a> to see our past projects.

    <b>Through combining over 20 years experience in digital design, photography and print media, with the latest knowledge of dynamic web coding,</b> we can confidently offer a variety of services fusing intricate aesthetics with sturdy functionality, from individual business card design, full corporate web presence, to projects and campaigns ranging across a variety of print and digital media.

    We see what we do as more than just 'design', and base our work around putting uniquity [is that a word???], functionality and effectiveness into a project as dynamic as your ideas. We strive to treat each....

    And that is all I can see.

    Personally though I would cut that up, way to much text and I wouldn't bother reading it. The text is bolded in the right places but also makes it more readable to 95% of us as 95% of us tend to scim read on-line so therefore they focus more on well written bolded sections that give details of that paragraph.

    The last 2 paragraphs IMO should be added to an about us section, and you should use the space generated to incorporate image examples of your work.

    Also hello I would change TBH.

    Hope it helps.

  10. bamme

    bamme Senior Member

    Thankyou very much for this Jaz, and Mat for your advice.

    I think when i started this a good few months ago I had a lot less of an idea about SEO. Now, the more i look at it, the more faults I see in terms of whats good for search engines..I think i might just keep this as a simple portfolio site for myself (ill cut the wording and number of sections down a lot to help loading speed to, just including a portfolio, and a contact page and incorporate some of the points ive learned here.

    If you guys look at my portfolio section, its done with ul and li, is there any way i could improve this or the strength of my portfolio section for SEO, as if its a portfolio site - itll be the mostpart of the site itself?

    "you should only target 1-3 (and certainly no more than 5) keywords per page. " - does this still mean i can/should target other keywords on other pages, or will it make a search stronger to target same keywords all over the site?

    Ive used very generic keywords and phrases also.. 'website design' 'graphic design' worried that too many bigger and more 'credible' sites will be listed higher for these terms no matter what i do, justbecause theyre better/have more inbound links/better content etc..

    is there a good technique for finding the less generic or popular keywords/phrases, and would it be an idea to lean on these instead and potentially get ranked a bit higher?

    Thanks so much guys.

  11. Harry

    Harry Senior Member

    Your h1 should be the main title of that page, so putting an image in there isn't a good idea. Your logo should just be an image, and your h1 should be the title of whatever page you're on.

    Also, are you using the <b> element there Jaz?!
  12. Jazajay

    Jazajay Active Member

    TBH I wouldn't be that hard on yourself, always look at it in terms of what is good for your site visitor and TBH screw the search engines as that way you increase your conversion rate.

    I would rather have 1000 site visitors less a month if I had a conversion rate of 75% why because most sites only tend to convert 3.5% of their site visitors. So even with 1000 less visitors I would still make way, way more money.

    Take my example just bolding certain words, as you are doing, is pointless it makes no sense as to why you put emphasis on them from a users point of view you know?

    So you bold lines that sum up the paragraph for scim readers but you bold the right words along with the other less important words for the search engines. Now the thing is they are the same.

    Why because someone coming to your site from a search engine looking for graphic design will want to see graphic design in the text do you get me? But by bolding graphic design tells me as a site visitor nothing other than what I already learnt from the search engine, so you add more text to help them get the gist.

    For what you have you really only need to make small changes I would keep the page count as it is TBH, just re-organize it better.

    The way the site works is fine, it just needs to degrade better than it currently does thats all and you need to do a better job at selling your self as TBH there is too much text on the home page so it puts you off reading the bits i need to read to have confidence in you to possible do business with you.

    Then add some good quality of images of current work and there you go if I like what I read and see at a glance I'm more interested to look further.

    You are right the chances are at the mo, you wont compete, that's why I said ~
    <b>Basing ourselves in the South of England [Where exactly]</b>

    Because you have a much higher chance of ranking for more specific terms.
    Say o I don't know.

    Web design in Devon.

    Why because those big sites are not optimized for localized terms, and terms like that as I have already said will have few searches but a much higher conversion rate.
  13. Jazajay

    Jazajay Active Member

    Yes I would normally agree but IMO, and bare in mind this is my opinion on the home page that should be your domain name, and you can change it to text if you want but the alt attribute is still fine if the rest of it, on-page and off-page, sings the same tune and you have trust in the search engines.

    Yes I am.

    <b></b> = 7 characters
    <strong></strong> = 17 characters.

    If you have 7 sections that need to be bolded thats a reduction of 70 characters which is what 70bytes from the page?????

    So cuts bloat, bandwidth and helps to speed the page up slightly.

    But you could use strong if you wish, I just prefer b for those reasons. :)
  14. Harry

    Harry Senior Member

    There are more sensible places to save 70 bytes, definitely not at the cost of semantics…
  15. Jazajay

    Jazajay Active Member

    And i will save those 70 bytes in those places as well if I can, then I save 140bytes. Double benefits then. :D
  16. Harry

    Harry Senior Member

    Well that's your call, of course. But I do personally think that doing something wrong for the sake of 10 bytes is a bit silly.
  17. Jazajay

    Jazajay Active Member

    Well it's not actually 10 bytes as I rarely use it once TBH, but fair enough I'm a silly, silly boy, lol, I don't mind that TBH. :lol:
  18. Harry

    Harry Senior Member

    Nah you're not silly, you're incredibly/enviably intelligent. I guess it's that fact that surprised me about you using <b> tags lol.
  19. Jazajay

    Jazajay Active Member

    Enviably? Lol, loving it. :D
    Well some times geniuses do stupid things my friend, lol.
  20. bamme

    bamme Senior Member

    just got back from working away sorry i didnt reply sooner, but thanks very much for that advice - i also wondered about the <b> thing, but first didnt know it would save bytes, and also am a newb so have no right to question hah! but its made something clear i think - that cutting down on the actual text on your page in terms of characters will save loading speed?? is that correct?

    in this case the things i need to do to my current site are:

    a) clean up the code in terms of reducing amount of characters - does this also apply for javascripts currently in the code that could be external?

    b) less textually dense in terms of the visitors view - maybe bullet point some sections instead of paragraphing

    c) <b> or <strong> certain keyphrases and words that relate to the services - apparently target no more than 3 keywords per page(is that right?)

    d) add in an exact location - thanks for this tip, is there anything else generally used to avoid using the same key words and terms as bigger companies?


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