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Lads, I Need Your Help

Discussion in 'Website Design Forum:' started by Xenonsoft, Apr 27, 2009.

  1. Xenonsoft

    Xenonsoft Active Member

    Right, so my Church wants a website. That's cool. Problem being, there's myself and a lad who runs this website both putting in different inputs.

    He uses something called (which coincidentally care so little about their site they've built it in tables and inline scripts) to build the website above.

    Anyway, I'm going a little off topic.

    I need to somehow let the guy know that not only is his site aesthetically crap (I've told him that), it's code wise crap (told him that) but why exactly he should care that it's made in tables and looks ghastly.

    I've said that it'll be inaccessible to those with screen readers, to which he replied that hardly any are blind implying that he's pretty much just ignoring them.

    What I'm looking for from you is something, an article maybe, whatever you think relevant, to show him and say this is why you shouldn't build sites with them / this is why you shouldn't use tables etc.

    Secondarily speaking, he's redesigning his current site (first link at the top) to a new template he has bought for $48, just like this one.

    That really peeved me off, not only am I a mate and just round the corner, but he'd rather buy a crap template that looks crap and is made in tables than pay a reasonable fee to me to support my business. Peeved.

    The main question above in bold stands though.

    EDIT: Lasses, don't take offence :p
  2. mrp2049

    mrp2049 Senior Member

    Friends get confused, they think can often think just because you charge loads to strangers you won't give them mates rates, or they feel bad asking you to help as a favour.
  3. Xenonsoft

    Xenonsoft Active Member

    Maybe. It's just annoyed me, I don't claim to know everything but I'll certainly make him a better site aesthetically and code wise that what he'd get, albeit for more than $48 but warranted.
  4. mrp2049

    mrp2049 Senior Member

    there in lies the problem, if there isnt alot of money floating around, then he might feel like an ass asking you to do the work for what they can afford, its not uncommon.
  5. rrrrryan

    rrrrryan Junior Member

    fred: sounds like an aggravating situation. have you thought about showing him the CSS Zen Garden? it's quite an effective example of the power of tableless design.

    that being said, i've had similar situations to this one and sometimes the best option is just to let them have it. it's important to stand your ground and try to 'show' someone what they are missing, but it's also important not to stress yourself out because somebody doesn't get the message.

    if the site is bad enough and doesn't fit your churches needs, which sounds likely, chances are you will find out and you can make your offer then.

    best of luck & cheers.
  6. berry

    berry Active Member

    I'm sure Harry or BlueOCto could pull out some info for you.
  7. Or you could use the time old answer of "because I'm the designer and you're not..." :) thats my answer to my boss and colleagues now-a-days LOL
  8. Xenonsoft

    Xenonsoft Active Member

    Haha, cheers for all the input lads.

    @Ryan, I'll put my point across and then see what happens, still unsure whether to fight my corner (in a Christian way, of course :p) or let them have whatever they want. I'm happy not to get paid for any work I'm gonna do for them, so if they want to go with a premade template or with that sitebuildit rubbish then that will save me some time and effort.

    @Berry, here's hoping :D

    @Chris, trust me I'm tempted :p

    Problem being, is that I don't think they really respect myself as knowing what I'm talking about, to a reasonable extent. I know I've got lots to learn but I've got a good foothold in web design and do know more than the rest of them put together.

    Anyway, the question stands, if anyone has got any good links to show the lad to show him where he is going wrong, that would be much appreciated! :)
  9. Harry

    Harry Senior Member

  10. DereckJohnson

    DereckJohnson Junior Member

  11. blueocto

    blueocto Senior Member

    Why would I take offense? *confused*

    You could tell him that, it being a church, the vast majority of those who attend tend to be qged and therefore a good chance they might have disablements; but it is now against the law to hae a non-DDA complaint website as it is discrimination against the disabled. UK Law
    And if he claims he doesn't care, ask him if he will when he gets reported for it lol

    Several advantages has been cited on the use of CSS in web design. Some of those advantages are as follows:

    * Faster loading of pages
    * Efficient and easy
    * Consistency
    * SEO friendly
    * Accessibility
    * Maintainability
    * Usability
    * Sophisticated layouts and designs
    * Bandwidth efficient
  12. Harry

    Harry Senior Member

    Did you check out my link Caroline?
  13. Xenonsoft

    Xenonsoft Active Member

    Cheers for all the tips all, I'll accumulate the info and then go from there.
  14. blueocto

    blueocto Senior Member

    Nope, (just had a quick look now) I see the point lol
    Last time I quote from a random website!

    I think its hard to find the correct way of doing web-related stuff like CSS, SEO, Adwords etc, because everyone seems to have methods that work for them; but are they the right ones?
    Even reputable blogs/sites have differences of opinions about, well, everything! How is one to know the true way of doing things?

    Makes me soo frustrated :cry:
  15. Xenonsoft

    Xenonsoft Active Member

    Title was Lads, didn't mention the lasses :p

    So in answer to my question, there's no real benefit of decent coding :sad:
  16. br3n

    br3n Senior Member

    Probably not for a church website no... but if they were building a new roof would they settle for one made of tin or would they prefer it done properly, with slate and lead.
  17. Harry

    Harry Senior Member

    No, CSS is definitely better than tables, but not always for the reasons people give. Don't use tables!
  18. craigfarrall

    craigfarrall Member

    This is a tough one, and I can understand your situation, as I have been in one not to dis-similar to this. They think because on there screen it looks ok that it will be for everyone. But people don't understand the speed side of things for using tables and not catering for everyone.

    I would probably advise him to this forum to show that more than one person feels strongly about this. Just a suggestion.

    How are things going with the client?
  19. Xenonsoft

    Xenonsoft Active Member

    I can only think of one legible reason currently, and that's for those with screen readers.

    I'm not saying Tables are as good as CSS, but to non-designers we have no real points to backup our thoughts.

    I don't think him coming to the forum would help though, as if we can't get a reason for why tables are bad he'll carry on using them and that's fair enough really.

    Things with the client, do you mean the Church? Or the lad who's bought the template? Neither are clients really, as it seems I'm just part of a team for the Church site build, and the lad who bought the template isn't wanting anything done as he is happy with the $48 template.

    Cheers for the input though :)
  20. Harry

    Harry Senior Member

    Tables are bad because they style the page. Style and content are meant to be separated and tables structure, and therefore style, the page's layout. All content must me linearisable and make sense when it is made so—tables don't necessarily allow this.

    Also, semantically tables are wrong. A table is not for layout, it's tabulating information.

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