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Hi everyone need some advice please. logo design

Discussion in 'Logo Design & Brand Identity Forum:' started by danielmasoomi, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. danielmasoomi

    danielmasoomi New Member

    Hello I need some simple advice from anyone who has been in this position before.
    I have had a client who requires a logo design - its aromatherapy ( facials also main service )
    ok the brief - wants to create a logo the has two elements, water fountain ''fountain of youth'' and a peacock '' beauty and confidence''
    i like the brief to be honest however,

    from my past experience the usage of the logo will be naturally used for ie embrodied towels - dressing gowns etc and small print - business cards letter heads leaflets and other smaller printed items.
    I will be up front I charged the client £80 i feel that this is a very low price but just graduating works hard to come by really in Liverpool.
    ive been paid the £80 in full.
    however i created a logo design , she didn't like it... fair enough there was no discussion further than what i wrote above for brief. and was given this style example of another skin company logo NU SKIN below
    I first created a simple bold clean not an amazingly detailed design but it fitted the brief a quality logo design for the price. The black and white where not actual colours just sample shape layout.
    as stated above she wasn't keen on it n '' not what i had in mind'' quote came to my emails.
    I aim to please and like to set a high standard n pride in my work.
    So i went back to it the second time and spent a bit of time on it but not charged her anymore money.
    she told me the feathers are to blocky and that she wants it to have more flow and detail to the feathers. However im trying to explain to her that this kind of detail in a logo thats used for small print and embroided towels etc in my opinion will not work on small print or clothing. you want a logo design thats clean and clear a highly detailed logo design would not carry itself well imo. any feed back welcome at this point on the designs
    my problem now is... shes still not happy after the second logo design.
    what do i do? do i ask for more money? as its taking over a week to complete taking up my time researching and sketching and other things. is she clearly taking the piss and am i on a slippery slope and should just give her her money back? or is there another option?
    id like to add this to my portfolio but unfortunatly these kinds of freelance jobs are not clocked down as industry experience when applying for jobs.
    id like to give the client a happy experience and quality work but some signs are telling me this could get messy.
    thanks for reading all this i know its a lot to get through and hope its easy to understand.
    am sure some of you have been at this point starting out.

    Attached Files:

    nhnpsxdgypxp likes this.
  2. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Maybe you could utilise water droplets and then arrange them to represent the peacocks tail and the fountain and freshness of pure water. also I know its custom to design logos in black and white, but sometimes clients need to see it in colour before they can connect to it.
  3. Tony Hardy

    Tony Hardy Guest

    Clients like this are almost impossible to deal with. They're the sort that "won't know it until they see it". The best way to deal with it would be to explain clearly and concisely why her "idea" won't actually work and why your approach will.
    Reference her to the NBC peacock for a shape and how her how well that works and adapts. You just need to open people's eyes sometimes.
    danielmasoomi likes this.
  4. Levi

    Levi Moderator Staff Member

    First thing first - contract/terms/what is being done for £x etc before starting ANY work.... learn from this one and don't make the mistake again.
    Second.... I can kind of see where she's coming from, the first design is to put it simply far too messy.
    The second one just seems off balanced, the peacock 'feathers' are wrong as they'd all stem from a central point on a peacock unlike your image and this is throwing it off.
    However the other companies image is in my opinion in a completely different direction to what you've been doing and I would put money on what she is wanting is a more simplified design.... something like a circle with the 'jug' in the middle and lines to create the 'feathers'... note how similar the idea is to the other company. I'd even go out on a limb and say that the client is basically wanting you to 'copy' the other design because that other design could easily be interpretted as a fountain and/or the tail of a peacock
    Having said that I'd tell her straight that she's now had 2 complete logo's for £80, you'll do one more and if she doesn't like that one then she'll need to pay additional fees. You probably won't get anywhere though by the sounds of the client, if she's only paying £80 for her business identity then you have to think about other aspects.
    danielmasoomi likes this.
  5. balders

    balders Member

    The bottom bird us more in proportion to a turkey. Its a but to fat and the feathers are to short and dumpy.Stick 'peacock logo' into Google, do an image search and she what she likes.
    danielmasoomi likes this.
  6. The Simulator

    The Simulator Active Member

    On the couple of occasions I've done a logo for close to this amount I've always stipulated in the contract that they will simply get what they're given, that's it, end of.
    Beforehand I always try and stress the value of branding and the need to spend time researching the company, it's methods, it's practices and it's clients in order to create an identity that is truly representative and will be long lasting. A lot of the time when this is explained people are willing to up their budget to allow more time to be spent on the project.
    If I were you I would offer her one more, based on the feedback she's given (don't spend too long on it mind) and that's it. Chalk this one up to experience and remember to get everything in writing before work starts.
    Steven Anthony and danielmasoomi like this.
  7. Squiddy

    Squiddy Guest

    Clients need to know what they can expect for their money, but it's difficult to do when you're new to the whole thing. This problem comes when you don't or aren't able to extract enough of the right information from the client to make what it is that they want. That's a process which can take a while to get right, for example, did you get the client to show you types of logos that they like before you began working? What other sorts of questions did you ask to create your brief?
    If you don't get that process right, then you're going to keep running into the problem of the client saying that they don't like it. Perhaps this is a one off situation, but I've known people to have many of these types of clients in a row and you just have to learn how to deal with them. If you start telling everyone that they're going to get what they're given, without extracting the information required to turn their thoughts into reality, then you will probably just end up with a lot of angry clients, and much fewer referrals. Or worse, start building a negative reputation!
    danielmasoomi likes this.
  8. danielmasoomi

    danielmasoomi New Member

    first of all thanks everyone for such a detailed feedback on the situation and on the logo design
    For the logo design i do think she wants me to copy the fountain of the NU SKIN logo design.
    Thanks also for the feedback on the body of the ''turkey'' ha ha I understand where your coming from now that your point it out. i was trying to keep all of the pieces the same shape and play around with it as the shapes individually look like water droplets.
    Also the spacing on the logo designs is not corrected and properly lined up. its just been places there for the client to see.
    My aim is to build a good client base and a good reputation I don't want to give out a bad design or a bad experience to the client.
    I want to keep her and myself happy. But also keep me in the power position while giving the client what she wants and needs.
    I need to experience and learn how to deal with clients freelance because if I'm honest im still confused on the correct process and pricing.
    Because the client is only paying £80 would it be worth my time writing up a contract for her?
    and also I know this may be the wrong section to add but I'm a little wary on my pricing. At my level should i be charging more? and not a fixed price. what kind of hourly rate should i be charging based on the standard of my work and experience level? I feel this kind of holds me back a little.
    Thanks again to everyone thats been a great help
  9. The Simulator

    The Simulator Active Member

    Regardless of price it is ALWAYS worth getting a contract signed.
    Once yo have a couple of templates (one for graphic, one for web etc) it only takes a couple of minutes to fill in the details specific to each project.
    At least this way both parties know exactly what is involved in the project and know what they will get out of it.
    As for pricing, it's entirely up to you. What do you feel your time is worth? How much do you need to earn to live etc etc. I've only been trading for 1 year (7 years experience though) and I charge £25/hour, that's how much I value my time based on my skill level and experience.
    I find it better to work out how much time a project will take (then add a bit more on for complications etc) then charge a flat rate for the project.
    I would always recommend taking a 50% deposit as well, then the other 50% on completion. Although I've still been caught out on this on lower valued projects. So anything under £300 I now ask for payment in full in advance. Stops people who aren't truly serious about paying you even bothering.
    danielmasoomi likes this.
  10. Tony Hardy

    Tony Hardy Guest

    Why not make a new thread in the Business Forum on here and we can try and answer some more business related questions in there!
    And this. Always do this. Get used to taking a 50% up front deposit and then 50% on completion (before you send the files) and like Mark says, anything under £300 (a small project), up front in advance. My level for that is actually £250, but you know what we mean! :)
    danielmasoomi likes this.
  11. Squiddy

    Squiddy Guest

    Because it's so far down the page he's probably never seen it ;)
    Deposits are always good, if you don't take a deposit, then you're asking to get burnt. I will definitely jump on the deposit advice bandwagon here!
    When you're setting your prices there are lots of different things you can look at, such as what are your local competitors charging? Do you feel you are able to give a similar experience to people that are charging more/less who have been doing it for longer? When it comes to businesses that deal with the end of almost any industry, it's not just about the final product, but also the journey the clients took to arrive there. Are you able to provide a stress free experience for your clients, have you got ALL of their needs covered, even if they haven't thought about it, and then be able to explain it to them in a way that they can understand and without feeling patronised! There's lots to consider.
    What I would suggest is to find out your local average price for a specific job, i.e. logo design, and then lower it until you are in the position where you know exactly what to say to clients and how make the client happy every time. In the mean time, gradually increase your prices as your confidence, design processes and experience grow. This also gets you into the habit of continually checking your prices and whether they are appropriate or not. Some times freelancers can forget that as their experience grows, their prices need to reflect this, else they will be stuck with the same type of clients they started out with!
    However, Tony is right, if you want more advice, please make a post in the Business Forum ;)
    danielmasoomi likes this.
  12. danielmasoomi

    danielmasoomi New Member

    thanks lads
    yeah no problem if you want to move this to the business section we can carry on there? thanks for the great advice
  13. Tony Hardy

    Tony Hardy Guest

    I was just thinking you could make a new thread for specific questions etc? Rather than having it all the way down here on an unrelated thread :)
  14. davewill

    davewill Senior Member

    Gotta agree with the advice given so far. Its a tough thing to do, especially when starting out but you need to be clear with the client as to what they get for their money.
    For my last freelance job I sent the client a quote and then followed that up by saying "50% needs to be paid at the beginning of the project, the remainder is paid on completition of the project. For this price you will get 3 or 4 concepts, a round of revisions, one or 2 final designs, another round of feedback and then a final design"
    I dont mind being flexible on this, sometimes I may do more concepts if I had a lot of ideas, sometimes Ill do more than 1 round of initial revisions, but either way the theory is the same. Set out from the beginning what your client can expect for their cash, that way you dont feel like you are being taken for a ride, plus they know where they stand when it comes to making changes etc.
    If you do post a new topic in the business section Id be happy to contribute advice there.
    danielmasoomi likes this.
  15. Steven Anthony

    Steven Anthony New Member

    I feel the same way about this! Nicely said the simulator!
    and At this point you have offered a lot to your client and you should make sure she understands that! those new designs are not just revisions anymore they are actually brand new designs... tell the client carefully that you do not redo designs for free and that you will only do one last revision because you are a hard working designer actually doing work. Some clients simply do not understand the concept of actual time and effort that has to go into a design...
    Well I wish you luck with everything!
    danielmasoomi likes this.

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