Member Offer
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

..But what if you have a blog?

Discussion in 'Website Design Forum:' started by bamme, Dec 28, 2009.

  1. bamme

    bamme Senior Member

    Hi All,

    I was reading this article about article submission and SEO. This guy says:

    Despite whether youre doing it in a black or white hat way, automated or maual, i guess this is a good way to go about posting articles (right?)

    Just 2 quick questions:

    1) Does he mean literally include a link from every page to every other page on your site? In this case - how are you meant to link all the pages/posts of your site together if you have a blog?

    2) Can anyone show me an example of a silo? Is this important? I read this article: SEO Newsletter - BACK TO BASICS: Siloing Revisited but dont really understand what this means.. im one of those people who needs a visual hands on example or a diagram..

    Thanks very much for insights :)
  2. Jazajay

    Jazajay Active Member

    Basically this is more in the relms of Information Archutecture and not SEO in my book, but I imagine someone would like to debate that with me. :)

    What it means is group related pages and link them together don't link all your pages to all your other pages as not all other pages are relevant, a non relevant link, even internally then dilutes your equity to that page.

    Sites that uses them?
    This is why I say it's more Information Archutecture because the best sites come from those that don't care about the search engines, Ebay, Amazon the BBC for example but do well for that reason, because they care about the user, which is the same thing TBH.

    Look at how they structure their information.
    Amazons home page has a link to all categories click books and what do you see?
    All the other site links disappear and you are left with links to their....books sections. Why? Because they are all related internal links that their site visitor would want.

    Click on Antiques for example and what happens? Again the page becomes dedicated to...yep thats right Antiques. Why? Because someone who clicked on that link wouldn't care about baby items nor do the search engines.

    Slightly looser example but again click on England and the whole page gets transformed into related links about yep you got it England.

    If you want to learn SEO IMO get a head of the rest and learn about Information Archutecture and you are there as TBH it's the same thing. Something that is related to your user is something that more or less will be related to the search engines.

    If a user would find it irrelevant so will the search engines.

    Does that make more sense?
  3. glenwheeler

    glenwheeler Senior Member

    Jaza have you ever thought of writing your own book?
  4. bamme

    bamme Senior Member

    Yeah it does make a lot of sense :) It would be interesting to read up more on information architecture, as it seems logically to relate a bit to psychology or at least to natural ways of thinking and on how to guide them..i remember jaz you posted me a link once and i started to read through, but it was so dense that it was tricky to really get stuck into this and work whilst learning something else at the same time hah!

    so i did a search, and found a lot of potentially v useful stuff but was all very very dense, lots of chapters, diagrams etc, when all id really like is a good rundown to get me started on this, a bit like some of the links Harry posts (except those are about CSS in my experience) that are informative but not an expert forum or an encyclopaedia.. does anyone know of anywhere?

    Regarding the technique i posted about, im guessing therefore, to 'link the pages together', id have to link to other related blog posts from the content of a blog post, add tags to it, plenty of keywords, and thats all i could really do.. as categories and pages are sorta statically, well, there. is that right?

    @glen: idea! this forum should so have a best posts compilation book. im sure both yours and jaz's would be in there. :)
  5. Jazajay

    Jazajay Active Member

    O my sweet, my sweet how we are only starting out on the long and boring road of IA. :)
    Heres where I started to learn from and by far the best resources for you to learn IMO ~

    # Information Architecture for the World Wide Web: Designing Large-Scale Web Sites: Peter Morville, Louis Rosenfeld: Books 525 pages, 4 out of 5

    # Don't Make Me Think!: A Common Sense Approach to Web Usability: Steve Krug: Books 216 pages 50 out of 5

    # Call to Action: Secret Formulas to Improve Online Results: Bryan Eisenberg, Jeffrey Eisenberg, Lisa T. Davis: Books 288 pages 50 out of 5

    # Designing Web Navigation: Optimizing the User Experience: James Kalbach, Aaron Gustafson: Books 456 pages 4 out of 5

    # Tagging: People-Powered Metadata for the Social Web: Gene Smith: Books 216 pages 3 out of 5

    The thing is you cant just link to sites that give you good examples, yes there are some but TBH it's more of a way of thinking. It's not as easy as Harry's site, no offence Harry, as in it's not code you can pick up and use it's a hugely complicated process that changes for each site based on x amount of factors.

    I would say Harry's site's the equvillent of learning to drive.
    IA on the other hand is the equvillent of being able to take the car apart and put it back together in exactly the same way it's that big.

    Take all those books and all those pages they pretty much all cover something different and don't overlap so much that you go O I read that exactly in such and such. The last book alone is 200 odd pages on how best to construct a tagging system for a site giving you some idea to the complexity that sites like Flicker go to behind the scenes it's not just as simple as right users can now add tags job done. There is algorithiums, be it simple ones, that can actually go into it to stop small minorities of frequent taggers buggering up the system.

    It is by far the biggest and most complex side of web design and the only part of web design where you could look at the same situation 20 times in 20 differnet ways and they all be correct to some degree, you cant do that with coding does that make sense?
    That's one of the reasons why IA's get paid way, way, way, way more than designers or even coders.

    When you read up on it and then design things a few times, based on those ideas, it becomes second nature TBH but you need a big understanding of it you know?

    For example whats the importance of using horizontal, vertical, left side or right side navigation? Is there one? Is it a certain site thing?

    Search bar where should you put it to get the most use out of it?
    Do you need one?

    Readability link why is it better to put it in the right?
    They are things you can learn pretty quick regarding IA but if u look at the site I maintain you look at it and think okay a website and then grade it based on design.

    I look at it and grade it on IA and say okay the right call to actions are in the right place, right kind of nav for this kind of site, information is easy to follow as in reading age, yeah I checked that out to etc...etc....

    Right within the home page alone, bare in mind it's a small page, there is 6 ways to find the info to contact the company or contact the company, as that is the main aim of every page for this site, can you spot them? Can you spot their scent? Is it to overbearing? or is it subtle enough that the user knows very quickly how to find it and it doesn't distract them from the rest of the page?

    The wording of the links matters a lot.
    For example we will have a look at just 1 link and the thought process I put into it. The link on the welcome message.

    Now this link isn't in a differnet colour because of the fact that the colour is too dark for the background, it's in light blue because light blue draws the users attention to the link on a brown background.

    Now look at the text, does it say something like contact us, or click here for futher information, no it says contact us for a free quote today.

    So why doesn't it say the first few examples?
    Well by adding the extra words 1 I am giving the user a command. Contact

    Your guiding the user to where you want them to go, which in this case is to contact the company. Today implies that they shouldn't put it off but do it now. Free quote again is added so as to tell the user subliminally that they wont have to worry about having to pay for a quotation but also it's free and everyone likes things that are free.

    The border on that link, look at the border/underline on the links accross the 3 major sections under the main image. What do you notice about this?
    The contact link has a border with a 1px gap to make the line drop down, the links on the sections under the image have a closer line, underlined in this case.

    That's not a design issue, thats a IA issue, why?
    Because that link again now stands out more from the rest, as it stands out more it tells the user it's importance amounst the other links on the page and therefore it is more important to them. Thats done deliberatly and is subtle but subtle enough that the users eye will more than likely spot it with out them even realizing it.

    Again the bottom links have this applied as the colour and size would make it a lot harder for them to be read effectively, again an IA issue not a design issue.

    Thats the kind of thought I put into 1 link.

    If you go through the site look where other call to actions are, look a font sizes, underlines, borders, colours, again the readability link follows the same rule, that probably should be underlined. Also look at the links text, it's not written for the search engines it's written to not confuse the user about the page and to get them to do something, which in turn is good for the search engines.

    Then bare in mind that with any design, and this can be seen with this one, I take into account information scent, link text, colour, varying font sizes, layout not just to make it look good but to make it easier for your user to find the info they need and want, and many other factors.

    Simple experiment pretend you haven't seen the site before and have no clue what it is about, click the link and try to answer the following, or at least no where to find the info, within 10 seconds, including page load time, or less.

    # Whats the site about?
    # Where can I contact them?
    # Do they cover my area?
    # What do they offer me?
    # Where am I within the site?

    Bare in mind thats only scratching the surface the links to those books will help you better than any online resource I find TBH.

    As hopefully your starting to see there is no way I can say yes or no, totally depends on the blog. Give me an example and I'll give you some advice to how the data should be structured as that's basically it.

    That's planed for somewhere around 2030 fella when I have learnt everything and not just scratched the surface as I currently have. :D
  6. Renniks

    Renniks Senior Member

    Quite bemused
    I've stopped reading most of the conversations between Emma & Jaza as I know I currently don't want to read the questions and responses as it "does not affect me" but loved this reply and was interesting to read :) *thumbs up*

    Also liked the 'experiment' and the fact I agree with logical and analytical approach to all things, and feel that all website creation should be completed this way.
  7. Jazajay

    Jazajay Active Member

    I didn't realise we chatted so much TBH, jease the Mrs will be getting jealous...again. :D

    Well I know the reply kinda got a tad long but TBH I had to stop myself as it is such a massive topic, but just small changes as I hope the explanation of the thought process with the contact link shows make a huge differance.

    I'm glad it bemused you anyway. :)
  8. Renniks

    Renniks Senior Member

    Why else do you think I read it, it was a mammoth post, without colour coding!!!
    I imagine a lot of psychology knowledge would be so useful here. I know there are things like the 'F' area of reading and there are reasons behind it etc. but its whether to know the tricks or to know the reasoning.
  9. Jazajay

    Jazajay Active Member

    That's why I find IA so boring I mean there's nothing to colour code, but you see colour coding is a way of IA, a lot easier to read and understand when code is split up like that, no?

    A few of those books actually go into psychology TBH as it is very much related, take the command in the link for a prime example.

    TBH you need to know the reasoning before you can truely understand or appreciate the tricks. For example can you see the sections in that post that I have written in a certain way to get you to try to read more of it as it is long and thus the user, be it you, attention will start to give up?

    Lot of questions, spaced out, leading points etc....etc....
    Why because your brain has to answer a question if it reads it, spaced out splits it up more, making skimming easier and making it seem less dauting, could have added bolding I suppose but I couldn't be arsed TBH, if that was a article on a site I maintain I would, check the link to see. :)

    But a lot of my posts on DF have a lot of IA tricks in them TBH, why do you think debating with me is so hard?
    Apart from the fact I'm always right that is. ;)

    O wait is that another question? :D
  10. Renniks

    Renniks Senior Member

    Don't sugar coat it, you just like to play with the colours ;) ;)

    What I mean however is, I could tell someone that "for ease of reading" you should:
    • Use lots of questions
    • Spaced out
    • Use leading points
    • Use bolding in xyz places

    and while they wont know why, they will still get 'the same' results.

    Because you're really reallly boring ;) ;)
  11. Jazajay

    Jazajay Active Member

    Aww darn it didn't realise my big chunky crayon fetish had made it's appearance on-line. :cry:

    Ssshhhh...don't give all my IA tricks away. :< :D
  12. Renniks

    Renniks Senior Member


    By the way, I completely agree that knowledge of psychology and why different aspects effect different things is much more important than attempting to follow a set of rules, if you know the psychology, the rules make them selves, you can't forget or get them wrong. I was just questioning your opinion as to whether it is necessary, or whether you can just complete IA using ABC commands
  13. Jazajay

    Jazajay Active Member

    Mmm.....I suppose in a way you could but knowing the reasoning why will make you a lot better at exploiting those tricks you know?

    Because IMO, and bare in mind this is my opinion, you have a set of tricks/rules you then base all you descisions on those rules so it's kinda limited really, but if you know the reasoning behind why they work you can expand them greatly.

    For example take your example to make it more readable ask questions. Well if you just ask questions randomly which follows that rule it wont make the copy more readable or keep the users attention in fact it'll do the opposite, but if you know it's because the users brain will have to answer it you can then exploit not only where you place it but what text comes next, look a the links in my sig for prime examples.

    Do your bit keep children safe and report illegal content to the IWF.
    There's 2 command's in their, do your bit, and and report, would it be as clickable if it just said IWF as the link text?

    ADHD or a reaction to food additives? The Hyperactive Children's Support Group
    Question gets ppl intrested then O look a link to a site with the info. It's more likely they will click it than if I just linked to the site isn't it?

    Ever wondered how to create a contact form for your site? Then follow this easy tutorial
    Starts off with a question that if you do you go aww yes actually I did, then ends up with a command, then follow, easy then makes non coders more at ease that they wont get lost and therefore more likley to follow the link. Would it be the same if I put HTML contact form tutorial? No TBH.

    Does your site meet the legal requirements of the DDA? Not sure then find out if it does
    Again makes the user think O not sure better make sure it does as it is a legal requirement, then the command in the link then find out, again if I just put Accessible webcoding, not the same thing as no one intrested in accessible web coding would click it, this way you make it more obvious why they should.

    For example your sig on the other hand just says my twitter.
    I don't use twitter so why should I follow it?
    But if it read ~
    Want to see what I'm up to? Then follow me on Twitter to find out.
    Because you start with the question and if they answer yes, then you tell them what to do by hitting them with a command then follow me.

    As one if I read one of your posts and thought wow you know liking it, actually yeah I do want to see what he's up to.
    Do you see the differance?
    If you do you see what I mean about a question followed up by good text = a much more clickable link in this case as that is my aim but knowing why I have expanded on the ABC approach.

    Do you get me?
    If you do it's the same with bolding, if not more so. But some things I'll keep to myself. ;)

    Also different types of commands are for differant circumstances using the wrong one in the wrong place wont help you as much, but still technically follows the ABC approach.
    On the other hand if you know why certain commands work well in certain context's then well......

    I imagine some ppl are going to be reading my posts slightly diffrently from now on. :)

Share This Page