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Logo size and placement

Discussion in 'Logo Design & Brand Identity Forum:' started by Gitman, Oct 16, 2016.

  1. Gitman

    Gitman New Member

    How do you determine the size and placement of a logo like the shield logo on the back of this laptop?


    As you can see it's not positioned in the center, but more inbetween the center and top of the laptop. How can you determine this position and the size of the logo so that it's not too big or too small?

    Can you use a grid system? Exactly how would that work?
  2. Levi

    Levi Moderator Staff Member

    you find a different picture where it's showing the logo face on.....
  3. Gitman

    Gitman New Member

    Hi, I'm not sure what that means. You mean find a pic of this laptop where it shows the logo straight on so you can try to figure out how big it is in relation to the rest of the surface it's on?
  4. Paul Murray

    Paul Murray Moderator Staff Member

    What's the purpose of wanting/needing to know the exact placement?

    If you have an image where it is face on and you know the actual dimensions of the laptop in real life, you can use something like Photoshop to convert the size of the laptop in the image to roughly the size of the real-life counterpart then measure the size and location of the logo to give you a pretty accurate guess.
  5. Gitman

    Gitman New Member

    Yes, I thought about that, but there must be a way to do this, since how did they do it in the first place? Isn't there a mathematical formula or something, like using a grid system that could determine this?
  6. @GCarlD

    @GCarlD Well-Known Member

    I think what the OP is asking is; How do we as designers decide where to place a logo such as the one in the example above and how large/small to size it so to speak.

    Answer is, it comes with experience really. In terms of some kind of mathematical formula or grid system, you may of heard of the golden ratio? That is used a lot in design. But with experience and research you kind of get a feel for when things are out of proportion and what size things need to be. Most importantly, there should be a reason behind having the said logo in this case a certain size, and upward from centre. For example, if a designer, created a logo where the mark is a form of bubble (just a random thought) it may make sense to place this symbol upward from centre to depict the floating of the weightless bubble logo.
  7. Gitman

    Gitman New Member

    No offense, but I don't think you ever eyeball anything. It's always checked or measured in some way, otherwise you're an amateur.
  8. @GCarlD

    @GCarlD Well-Known Member

    Absolutely, no one is saying to eyeball anything, hence me referring you to the golden ratio (look it up). But I can tell if something is out of proportion, or if the composition is off from experience...

    There is no mathematical equation used to determine the size and proportion of everything you design, if that is what you are wondering. Everything you do should be done for a reason, not just to look pretty.
  9. Paul Murray

    Paul Murray Moderator Staff Member

    I actually think the opposite a lot of the time, that it shows amateurism to rely too much on exact measurements and ratios. Sometimes the mathematically correct way just doesn't look right so you adjust something by eye until it does. I feel part of being a professional is being confident in your gut reaction and trusting what your eyes see.
  10. Levi

    Levi Moderator Staff Member

    Actually you'd be surprised by how much you do 'eyeball' things when you get to a professional level. I know I can tell when things aren't lined up right just from looking at something for example.

    In regards to deciding on placement on the lid when the product is being designed... 90% of the time the designer places it in a place where it looks balanced and attractive to the design of the product. In this case it wouldn't have worked in corners so needs to be middle of the lid and due to the angles the designer also 'raised' the designed closer to the top.

    To be honest there are a LOT of 'scientific' rules you could follow for layout but in most cases like the image above it is purely a 'gut instinct' about the right placement... and I should know I work in the product design sector not graphic design sector.
  11. @GCarlD

    @GCarlD Well-Known Member

    It also depends on what you are working on, if it's something that needs to be made to an exact measurement, then obviously we would set the measurements, not eyeball it and think that's about right. Also, sometimes when using the align tools, it is worth double checking at times, as for example, if you want something dead center, the align function may align the frame of the object central but your actual design may be an unusual shape and you can just see that the artwork it is not actually 100% central (particularly if the frame goes beyond the object) and have to adjust by eye or perhaps measure manually onscreen in some cases. You just know when something isn't right by looking.
  12. Paul Murray

    Paul Murray Moderator Staff Member

    I hate when someone has the nerve to invite me into their home without bothering to perfectly aligning frames on the walls first…
  13. @GCarlD

    @GCarlD Well-Known Member

    Frames not being straight on a wall does actually annoy me a bit! If they are slightly off I can let it slide but when they are clearly at a bloody diagonal angle.... :mad:
  14. Gitman

    Gitman New Member

    Just because you eyeball something doesn't mean it doesn't fit into some sort of mathematical alignment. It's like, you can play drums in 4/4 at 120bpm without a metronome and think it sounds like you're playing in time, and maybe you are even though you didn't use a metronome or check against a metronome to see. Do you see my point? There isn't a mysterious aspect to art.

    There is a reason things look good, and that reason can be scientifically measured, regardless if you want to believe that or not. It's just like we can determine whether or not someone is singing in key or playing in time. It's not an opinion. It's not like: well, just play and sing what you think sounds good. You can do that and maybe you'll be in time and in key, but there is a way to check one way or another.

    The reason I mentioned the grid system is because I knew I would get these sort of answers. I want a way of doing this that can be measured and I don't see why using a grid system wouldn't work, so that I can know for sure that there is some underlining mathematical measurement that the size and placement fits into.

    I can eyeball it and make it look good. But I want the precision and certainty of being able to check it, just like I can check a piece of music to see if all the beats are in time or notes are in key.
  15. Levi

    Levi Moderator Staff Member

    There's no point us trying to explain something when you clearly won't accept that some things are done by eye....

    I suppose you are technically correct in the assumption there is a scientifically measured position for it but it's not what you're expecting..... it's called the dimension lines on the plans.

    Oh and your music analogy is a bad one, there are plenty of musical styles that do not use musical instruments and is just people singing together to create their music, it's all done with their own instincts, training and natural ability.
  16. Wardy

    Wardy Well-Known Member

    You don't seem to be reading what people are posting. The Golden Ratio has already been mentioned, which helps with positioning things in a visibly pleasing way.
    A much simpler term is the Rule of Thirds. The shield has been centred horizontally, obviously, and placed approximately a third of the way down. The shield
    looks like it has been sized to the same width of the logo above it. This is where design common sense comes in - it doesn't need to be bigger because it will spoil
    the aesthetics of the laptop, and smaller would be not noticeable enough. There is no right or wrong way, Apple and HP put them smack bang in the centre of course.
    @GCarlD likes this.
  17. Levi

    Levi Moderator Staff Member

    HP used to put them in the lower left hand corner as you looked at it and also on the right hand side half way between top and bottom ...... they were purely aesthetic choices rather than following set rules outside of common sense like 'white space' for gaps from the side etc
  18. Paul Murray

    Paul Murray Moderator Staff Member

    There's two ways to look at this:

    1. You can use a mathematical formula to decide the exact placement of the logo

    2. You can place it by eye, then reverse engineer a formula that fits that placement.

    But the question is whether this is second option is even valid. We have no way of knowing if that particular logo was placed using some kind of conscious formula or was simply placed by eye. If you reduce the layout of the laptop to a grid and increase the number of intersections enough times, you'll probably be able to fit the placement to that grid, but is that a true representation? Will that grid help you in future? Maybe not.

    If I ever place something central, I will pretty much always move it up a little so it just "looks right" (central objects tend to feel lower than they actually are). The same is true of fonts. Check out an 'o' in a professionally designed typeface, and more than likely it will sit lower than the rest of the characters because if it doesn't, it looks strange. This is another example of a designer trusting their eye, though again I'm sure it's possible to reverse engineer a formula from it.

    It's actually quite an interesting topic, do we every really just eyeball something, or are our minds constantly making tiny calculations that result in a perfect formula for placement?
  19. @GCarlD

    @GCarlD Well-Known Member

    @Paul Murray Apparently we are amateurs if we eyeball anything... I'm kind of with @Levi I feel as though unless we come up with some kind of E=MC2 formula, he is just not going to accept anything we say.

    I think what is happening is due to us studying graphic design and gaining several years of experience, we are naturally and subconsciously doing certain things automatically like a reflex, from the knowledge we have gained over the years. It's like when we see a font just doesn't work with a design, based on it's theme, it's message or it's intentions, what it's about, the way it is trying to make the viewer feel or behave etc etc. We don't need to look at some equation or look up what font works with a design for *insert design here* we just know from experience what type of fonts work, and what fonts do not. At the very least we instantly know whether a san serif or serif font is required, or possibly both?

    It's the same with layout, composition, size, colour, positioning, alignment etc. We may find ourselves working to the rule of thirds without even thinking about it, just because it's what feels right and works for said piece. There could also be times when we are given guidelines of a strict layout to work to, which tends to limit our work. I guess it's like creating a website from a web template vs building a website from scratch.
  20. Gitman

    Gitman New Member

    So, let's say the panel the logo goes on is 34.54cm by 19.43cm, and the logo has the same width and length, like a square. How could you use a grid system to get the size and placement of the logo similar to the laptop I posted earlier?

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