Is it sometimes ok to use tables for non tabular data?

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Levi said:
Note - not a web designer but I have done (and am doing new one) my site

But what happens if 'your' work ends up being sent to a new person as you're not the chosen coder anymore. It's fine that your work is faster for 'you' but it could end up costing the client more if they go elsewhere as it would be slower for themn. The whole point of these web standards is as far as I know to make it simple for web sites to be transferred between coders as the clients wants.

You could also argue that by not following standards you are artificially locking a client into 'your' work and this can't be good for client referrals once they figure out what you're doing, especially if one of your clients goes for a quote from someone else and finds out the issue and gets informed of the problems it may cause.

You also seem to be forgetting the benefits of a fast loading site in terms of seo, Jaz will know more, but google (and I assume bing) aslo include speed of the site as part of their criteria now. The site that started this discussion off showed just how slow tables can be and this would have a detrimental effect on it's rankings

Well I believe that tables would be much more widely (and more readily) understood (rightly or wrongly) than the method Renniks posted for vertical centring.

Let me make it clear that 99% of my code is standards compliant and sans tables.

What I'm suggesting is that tables be used for less common tasks, like vertical centring and elastic equi-sized columns.
 
Mark Alexander said:
Well I believe that tables would be much more widely understood (rightly or wrongly) than the method Renniks posted for vertical centring.
I'll admit I've never heard of display:table (assuming thats the bit you mean) but then this isn't my main field but it is a w3c standard and as such I would think that a majority would know of it or could quickly look it up to understand it.

Even I posted a solution for vertial centring using css and I've never used it so for someone who works with it full time it must be pretty obvious lol
 
Ok, easy to finish this topic (involving Mark A at least)

No one can say that it isn't quicker for you - as that is a personal thing - why it is quicker is irrelevant - if it's quicker for you - fine

No one can say what your or your clients priorities are - they are a personal thing - why it isn't a priority for you or your clients is irrelevant - if it isn't a priority for you - fine

End of discussion

_____________________

For everyone else that cares

Speed of site
SEO
Maintainability
Accessibility
Compliancy

are all at a detriment by using web elements for tasks they aren't made for,

I advise using the HTML spec to check what things are suggested, there are good round ups in priority 1 and priority 2 guidelines for accessibility that suggest not using elements for things other than intended.

This will allow you to create more semantic markup, something that is held as a high reserve by a large number of the industry, which can't be a bad thing, as a recommendation from someone within the industry is always good.

It also allows you to drop marketing keywords into discussion such as keeping to EU recommendation, easier to maintain, ability for others to take over the project if they need to, a quicker site - site speed was shown (in the case of Amazon) that 0.1 second slower site = 1% lower spending - which is definitely a benefit
 
But I disagree that it's maintainable or as easily comprehendable.

Your solution has multiple solutions for different browsers and uncommon CSS statements.

Do you think you could do the whole thing by memory, cross browser and all? What about an average web developer?

I think most could vertically centre with a table from memory, and instantly understand what was happening with such a setup.
 
NB Post #63 - http://www.designforums.co.uk/web-c...-use-tables-non-tabular-data-5.html#post73390
is my own opinion

I reserve the right to not care what anyone is saying about my opinion, especially when using numbers or their opinion to refute it - hence - it is more maintainable to keep to standards compliant code

Ooo unless you want to use the <center> tags, that's just cool right? and quicker, and you can see it in the html so how is it not more maintainable, and yeh...
 
Ultimately, if you wish to use tables and other elements for purposes other then what they intended for is up to you, there is thousands of reasons why in a professional capacity you should code for standards, but its always going to be personal preference if you strive or even believe in that principle, That being said we all know including yourself that doing things correctly always carries more value, in both whats quantifiable and what isn't.

Therefore as I have already pointed out, your post is nothing more than flame bait, and doesn't offer any value to the members of the forums and the wider web community, So I must congratulate you on getting a rise out of us all. How silly we must all look.

I hope your next post is a little more weighted for discussion.
 
Renniks said:
Ooo unless you want to use the <center> tags, that's just cool right? and quicker, and you can see it in the html so how is it not more maintainable, and yeh...

I think most developers understand content and presentation separation. It's less likely they'll know uncommon CSS attributes and browser targetting, or about a specific nuanced solution to a problem.

I'm suggesting methods that people will already understand by simple virtue of knowing HTML/CSS. Tables and vertical-align: centre; are basic knowledge, so anyone who sees my code will instantly get what's going on. I don't believe the same can be said for your method.
 
I'm confused why you can use the argument that most developers understand something, yet we can't use the argument that most developers understand compliant coding is better.

I'm confused why people not knowing a better technique means you shouldn't use it, there is after all, enough information on the techniques online.

I'm confused why you would want to use things for their unintended purpose when there are things that work as intended.

I'm confused why you keep arguing, after all, it's all a personal preference - as you said.

I'm obviously very confused with this whole thing. I just hope that people who want to learn more will read post #63 and post #21
 
Think it's time to agree to disagree on this one guys.
I'll close the thread to save any further back and forth :)
 
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