badstudent
Junior Member
its quiet easy if y have all nessesary and know how do it or base at least, if you want posh web, so need to learn more
How long does a web design take?
- Thread starter bluecube
- Start date
Jazajay
Active Member
I think 2 things that can sum this up is it depends entirely on if its a indivdual or company. Companies will take longer than indivduals because of other work, its also down to how you manage your time and client expectations.
For example a job that takes me 5mins to do may take James 1 hour, where as a Job that James could do may take him 2 mins and myself 2 hours.
But the point is at the end of the day the time is illrevant.
Because lets say we both charged the client £30/hour.
James can do one job better than I so does it in 10 mins and charges in 30min slots so £15.
I then do it in 2 hours so charge £60.
I charge more for the same work but because James got it done faster has in fact just devauled his work, not neseccarily because he charged less and got it done faster, but because he knew what he was doing/a better way of doing/experiance of doing it before, actually means he is better than I at it, but got paid less for doing it because he devauled his time by saying it was a quick fix. It was only a quick fix because he was good at his job, otherwise it would have taken him 2 hours, meaning it wasn't a quick fix at all.
What then happens if James has another job on that takes him 3 hours? The clients expectations are now that it will be done quickly and be done in 5mins, so when he charges £90 even through its worth £90 the client is like but thats 6 times what it was before I'll go else where, when James could have done it to exactly the same standard, now if he had upped his self worth, and this is the key its not about ripping people off, its how much your services are worth, to £30 on the first job he would have got the second as the clients expectations wouldn't be so high, as then its only 3 times as much not 6 times more. Sorry for using you James for my nemesis.
Honestly don't look at it as in how fast it can be done because you then devalue your work and in the long run will find your self actually having less business from return clients and the crappy clients that companies off load, had one of them last week and my boss phoned 6 seperate web companies to off load this nightmare of a client, and if your clients don't want to pay let them go else where don't then charge less. You will be surprised how many people come back after a bad experiance of cheap services.
But from experiance clients who expect the world on a stick will cost you more in time just sending emails back and forth then you would make. So you also need to factor in client stupidity. For example:
Again 2 different clients ask for the same thing, one sends around 200 emails confirming it the other 3. How much time have you spent writing emails? Was that factored in to the price?
Now think how long it took to respond and write all 200 replies?
Was that time factored in?
When you look at it in time worth and job worth you can see how 3 days actually isn't really a long time and is pretty quick?
Have you just devauled your services?
I had one for my dads site recently, actually contacted my dad wanting to know who did it as there was no link on his site so your thinking in the bag and when I quoted for a site as good as his, he didn't want to know, but wanted all the bells and wisthles for £100. So he went else where, because there are free website builders that will do it for you. Yeah wont give you a site as good as my dads in a million years, the differance between a bagatii and a 10year old ford focus. But again client expectations where its cheap.
Don't devalue your services, that way you get good clients over clients who expect the world for nothing.
For example a job that takes me 5mins to do may take James 1 hour, where as a Job that James could do may take him 2 mins and myself 2 hours.
But the point is at the end of the day the time is illrevant.
Because lets say we both charged the client £30/hour.
James can do one job better than I so does it in 10 mins and charges in 30min slots so £15.
I then do it in 2 hours so charge £60.
I charge more for the same work but because James got it done faster has in fact just devauled his work, not neseccarily because he charged less and got it done faster, but because he knew what he was doing/a better way of doing/experiance of doing it before, actually means he is better than I at it, but got paid less for doing it because he devauled his time by saying it was a quick fix. It was only a quick fix because he was good at his job, otherwise it would have taken him 2 hours, meaning it wasn't a quick fix at all.
What then happens if James has another job on that takes him 3 hours? The clients expectations are now that it will be done quickly and be done in 5mins, so when he charges £90 even through its worth £90 the client is like but thats 6 times what it was before I'll go else where, when James could have done it to exactly the same standard, now if he had upped his self worth, and this is the key its not about ripping people off, its how much your services are worth, to £30 on the first job he would have got the second as the clients expectations wouldn't be so high, as then its only 3 times as much not 6 times more. Sorry for using you James for my nemesis.
Honestly don't look at it as in how fast it can be done because you then devalue your work and in the long run will find your self actually having less business from return clients and the crappy clients that companies off load, had one of them last week and my boss phoned 6 seperate web companies to off load this nightmare of a client, and if your clients don't want to pay let them go else where don't then charge less. You will be surprised how many people come back after a bad experiance of cheap services.
But from experiance clients who expect the world on a stick will cost you more in time just sending emails back and forth then you would make. So you also need to factor in client stupidity. For example:
Again 2 different clients ask for the same thing, one sends around 200 emails confirming it the other 3. How much time have you spent writing emails? Was that factored in to the price?
Now think how long it took to respond and write all 200 replies?
Was that time factored in?
When you look at it in time worth and job worth you can see how 3 days actually isn't really a long time and is pretty quick?
Have you just devauled your services?
I had one for my dads site recently, actually contacted my dad wanting to know who did it as there was no link on his site so your thinking in the bag and when I quoted for a site as good as his, he didn't want to know, but wanted all the bells and wisthles for £100. So he went else where, because there are free website builders that will do it for you. Yeah wont give you a site as good as my dads in a million years, the differance between a bagatii and a 10year old ford focus. But again client expectations where its cheap.
Don't devalue your services, that way you get good clients over clients who expect the world for nothing.
Jazajay
Active Member
I know some people are going to read that and think rip off merchant there.
No It's about expertise.
Okay let me give an example.
We had a client do some SEO work, £200 for the month, recently.
I spent around 45mins doing the work, 2weeks after the changes got picked up he had 285 new page 1 positions in Bing, AOL, Google and Yahoo!. 78 in Google alone.
What if we had charged by the hour?
Now let say he went to a SEO company and they change say £50/hour and did 4 hours work, and got him 4 new positions from link building.
Which is the better value?
1 hour at £200 but 285 terms - Knowing what you are doing
or 4 hours at £200 but 4 terms? - Outdated techniquies.
Thats the differance between ripping people off and managing clients expectations.
Okay lets look at it another way. Lets say I charged him £50 for that 1 hour, got 285 new page 1 positions, what happens next month when he only gets say 50 for the same price, it's only £50 any one can do it? But can they?
Hopefully that explains more about what I mean, encase anyone miss reads, its not about ripping people off at all, its about expertese and charging what you are actually worth, IE: Have pride in yourself god darn it!
Also if anyone has ever been for tenders you know it is bar far not how fast you can do it thats all about hitting normally the seriosuly overinflated number the person in marketing/government has put on that tender.
Charge to less because you are quick at what you do and you wont get it because it doesn't hit the number they have to waste off thier own budget. Because if they don't spend that budget they don't get it next year.
Cough.....this year tender from the council £12k for a walking website, £2000 if they came to us directly, but that wouldn't waste the budget they had been allocated, yet alone thinking what a £10k council spending cut could save to tax payers. So again its more about valuing your expetise over how fast it can be done.
No It's about expertise.
Okay let me give an example.
We had a client do some SEO work, £200 for the month, recently.
I spent around 45mins doing the work, 2weeks after the changes got picked up he had 285 new page 1 positions in Bing, AOL, Google and Yahoo!. 78 in Google alone.
What if we had charged by the hour?
Now let say he went to a SEO company and they change say £50/hour and did 4 hours work, and got him 4 new positions from link building.
Which is the better value?
1 hour at £200 but 285 terms - Knowing what you are doing
or 4 hours at £200 but 4 terms? - Outdated techniquies.
Thats the differance between ripping people off and managing clients expectations.
Okay lets look at it another way. Lets say I charged him £50 for that 1 hour, got 285 new page 1 positions, what happens next month when he only gets say 50 for the same price, it's only £50 any one can do it? But can they?
Hopefully that explains more about what I mean, encase anyone miss reads, its not about ripping people off at all, its about expertese and charging what you are actually worth, IE: Have pride in yourself god darn it!
Also if anyone has ever been for tenders you know it is bar far not how fast you can do it thats all about hitting normally the seriosuly overinflated number the person in marketing/government has put on that tender.
Charge to less because you are quick at what you do and you wont get it because it doesn't hit the number they have to waste off thier own budget. Because if they don't spend that budget they don't get it next year.
Cough.....this year tender from the council £12k for a walking website, £2000 if they came to us directly, but that wouldn't waste the budget they had been allocated, yet alone thinking what a £10k council spending cut could save to tax payers. So again its more about valuing your expetise over how fast it can be done.
Designer156
Junior Member
Probably a day to come up with 2 or 3 concepts for the client. Then half a day to refine based on feedback.
Internal pages, probably an hour or two.
Internal pages, probably an hour or two.
guru24
Member
bluecube said:
Depends what you mean by 'design' - this is a rather vague and often misused term.
For example, you might mean visual/aesthetic design of front-end UI, but really, a thorough design job should consider elements like content, information architecture and navigation on a site-wide basis - you can't design the front-end UI without doing this first.
S
Squiddy
Guest
Expanding on what Jaz has mentioned, in some great detail I should add..! This entire argument is why you shouldn't charge clients on an hourly basis - charge them for the project as a whole.
This way instead of being penalised for accruing knowledge and experience you are actually being paid what you're worth (assuming you've given an appropriate figure for the project) furthermore it allows you to present your figures in a transparent manner. Does it ever fill you with confidence when you see something advertised without any pricing information? No, because it usually means it's going to be very expensive. You do have to know what you're doing in order to make this work but surely the thing that supports your lifestyle, possibly family and provides you with the opportunity to succeed in something is worth it.
There is a very nice article on this subject here: On Getting Paid | Jessica Hische
It's a bit of a long read (longer than Jaz's posts!) but this is your career we're talking about, if that puts you off then I would struggle to consider you as serious about your job.
This way instead of being penalised for accruing knowledge and experience you are actually being paid what you're worth (assuming you've given an appropriate figure for the project) furthermore it allows you to present your figures in a transparent manner. Does it ever fill you with confidence when you see something advertised without any pricing information? No, because it usually means it's going to be very expensive. You do have to know what you're doing in order to make this work but surely the thing that supports your lifestyle, possibly family and provides you with the opportunity to succeed in something is worth it.
There is a very nice article on this subject here: On Getting Paid | Jessica Hische
It's a bit of a long read (longer than Jaz's posts!) but this is your career we're talking about, if that puts you off then I would struggle to consider you as serious about your job.
Jazajay
Active Member
I have got to admit Squiddy I was like most of the responses here when I first started out, offering sites with very advanced technquies, custom templates, seriosuly fast load times the works for £100 it is not until I got into a proffessional environment until I realized actually how good I was in comparison to others of my err....I suppose peer group, personally there are not many people who I class to my standard. I fix Joomla bugs for instance rather than updating Joomla as it is faster and the people who put Joomla together, and word press are pure morons who have created so many problems, but thats another arguement for another time.
I was changing one of our developers code today and thought dear lord your a moron as well, and redid most of it myself, and I've been asked to check others peoples work for independent companies before they have reviews and I know for certain now how good I am. Its not until then I think/wake up moment do you go you know what there is a differance between £100 and £1000 for the same site, regardless of time, and people who want a £1000 site for £100 can just carry on jogging on as they are not going to get one.
I think the problem with the web development industry on the whole is you have so many people "who can do it". When actually what they can do it put a website together, doesn't mean it is done well at all. Clients see the design and the price tag and then don't understand that the mess of the underlying code for example will cause them more problems in the long term, even though it was done quickly.
And as there are so many "developers" around all services should be cheap as clients have a mass of choice.
But the one thing most developers miss, is if they let a client go because he is not willing to pay £1000, hell let 3 go, but the 4th pays you have just taken 1 client on and got paid for 10, because you have vauled your services correctly and not bent over to accomadate people who are only going to want cheap. But you will find thats the reason why most sites fail, in my opinion.
Obviously if your crap your crap and should charge only £100.
I was changing one of our developers code today and thought dear lord your a moron as well, and redid most of it myself, and I've been asked to check others peoples work for independent companies before they have reviews and I know for certain now how good I am. Its not until then I think/wake up moment do you go you know what there is a differance between £100 and £1000 for the same site, regardless of time, and people who want a £1000 site for £100 can just carry on jogging on as they are not going to get one.
I think the problem with the web development industry on the whole is you have so many people "who can do it". When actually what they can do it put a website together, doesn't mean it is done well at all. Clients see the design and the price tag and then don't understand that the mess of the underlying code for example will cause them more problems in the long term, even though it was done quickly.
And as there are so many "developers" around all services should be cheap as clients have a mass of choice.
But the one thing most developers miss, is if they let a client go because he is not willing to pay £1000, hell let 3 go, but the 4th pays you have just taken 1 client on and got paid for 10, because you have vauled your services correctly and not bent over to accomadate people who are only going to want cheap. But you will find thats the reason why most sites fail, in my opinion.
Obviously if your crap your crap and should charge only £100.
Jazajay
Active Member
@Tom
No because you see then every one becomes the same and then you have to cut your prices to £100 as everybody can code and design to a £1000 standard. There is no top of the range players.
What the good ones amoungst us need is the crap "developers" amoungst us as well. That way when we get nightmare clients who costs us £45/hour just to manage them we can off load them to people who don't have a clue and thus we don't have to lose money in managing nightmare clients. But it also allows us to pick up good clients who have had bad experiances from cheap and fast services, and also get rid of people who want ebay for £100 and then go well you know i'll pay you £2 a month until the £100 is cleared.
Crap is good if you know what you are doing.
No because you see then every one becomes the same and then you have to cut your prices to £100 as everybody can code and design to a £1000 standard. There is no top of the range players.
What the good ones amoungst us need is the crap "developers" amoungst us as well. That way when we get nightmare clients who costs us £45/hour just to manage them we can off load them to people who don't have a clue and thus we don't have to lose money in managing nightmare clients. But it also allows us to pick up good clients who have had bad experiances from cheap and fast services, and also get rid of people who want ebay for £100 and then go well you know i'll pay you £2 a month until the £100 is cleared.
Crap is good if you know what you are doing.
guru24
Member
Jazajay said:What the good ones amoungst us need is the crap "developers" amoungst us as well. That way when we get nightmare clients who costs us £45/hour just to manage them we can off load them to people who don't have a clue and thus we don't have to lose money in managing nightmare clients. But it also allows us to pick up good clients who have had bad experiances from cheap and fast services, and also get rid of people who want ebay for £100 and then go well you know i'll pay you £2 a month until the £100 is cleared.
Crap is good if you know what you are doing.
Nice take on the situation.
To summarise: cheap bucketshop agencies/developers deserve the nightmare clients. Elsewhere, cream rises to the top.
Jazajay
Active Member
Yeah exactly.
These days I wont cut prices just to keep clients from going else where, unless there is a tiny amount in comparison to the work, but then I think about it as when I do I have just set a precedant for future work.
Pretty simple logic why when you think about it.
Say I cut a £1000 site down to £100 to get the job as thats the clients budget, do that 10 times and I come out with £1000 in total.
But say I didn't do that at all and let 9 go who weren't prepared to pay for a top of the range site, but kept one who paid £1000. I have just got paid the same but did 9 times less work for the same money rather than being a muppet and being over worked and still end up getting exactly the same because I was chasing clients unreal expectations, because every body can do it as well as me apparently, and there are even free tools to do it for you....ha, yeah you get what you pay for.
In the words of the saint, Dell boy:
"What did he expect for £20?"
Pretty sure that was when he sold a broken VCR that didn't work, mmm...could be wrong.
These days I wont cut prices just to keep clients from going else where, unless there is a tiny amount in comparison to the work, but then I think about it as when I do I have just set a precedant for future work.
Pretty simple logic why when you think about it.
Say I cut a £1000 site down to £100 to get the job as thats the clients budget, do that 10 times and I come out with £1000 in total.
But say I didn't do that at all and let 9 go who weren't prepared to pay for a top of the range site, but kept one who paid £1000. I have just got paid the same but did 9 times less work for the same money rather than being a muppet and being over worked and still end up getting exactly the same because I was chasing clients unreal expectations, because every body can do it as well as me apparently, and there are even free tools to do it for you....ha, yeah you get what you pay for.
In the words of the saint, Dell boy:
"What did he expect for £20?"
Pretty sure that was when he sold a broken VCR that didn't work, mmm...could be wrong.
Jazajay
Active Member
Had this at work today and so reiterates the differance between £100 and cheap and £1000 and working. But O dear lord I never knew this kind of developer exisited before today nor would I have believed any one who had told me again prior to today.
Background:
1 of our clients have phoned up cut a long story short they had hired a developer who was going to work on their website and he wanted to take the hosting and website updates on so they wanted to end our services.
Heated converation with my boss and this new developer later over T&C's and everything was finialized. So he sent the details to FTP the files to a new hosting provider.
Today I get a message on my desk to phone, we shall call him Tom as it wont be fair to mock his real name, Tom as he was having difficulties with accessing the FTP. Honest to God I would never have expected what followed in a million years.
The converstation went something like this:
Me: Hi is Tom there?
Tom: Speaking
Me: Hi Tom I understand you are having some problems accessing the FTP?
Tom: Yeah entered the username and password but it says they are incorrect.
Me: Okay what are they are I'll check them
Tom: <Gives details>
Me: Strange they are correct, what host are you trying to connect to?
Tom: Don't know
To be honest that should have been my first clue, this is really unbelievable his job title is web developer.
Me: Okay well in the host section you need to enter <Give him IP address>
Tom: Is this on the website as I can't see it?
Me: What website?
Tom: Yours
Me: Sorry what?
Tom: Do I enter these on your websites login screen?
At this point I was trying so hard not to laugh, websites login screen, enter FTP details to access files via FTP, priceless. :lol:
Me: No you need to enter them into a FTP client.
Tom: O okay
Me: Have used an FTP client before?
Tom: No
Thats right people the first "Developer" I have ever met who has never used an FTP before in his life and got hired as a website developer. The rest of the conversation went about how to download an FTP client and then how to use one as he didn't even know what one was. We so need a wetting your self with laughter smilie as the lol one just doesn't do this justice.
As you can imagine Tom may then have to go and change his pants especially as he kept asking o and that will let me change the files right, well yeah but I would recommend you download them and use a editor, didn't want to make him wet his pants by saying HTML editor. :lol:
But basically he's a developer because he can setup a CMS, probably from a CPanel click of a button and has the ability to put a template onto a site. I'm going with via the CMS install setting.
O the best thing is the site he's now developing is a html static, :lol:
Dear lord I honestly got off the phone and called my boss to have a right laugh because he made such a big deal of it and everything to him. O brilliant. Made my day, Thats £100 right there, wont work but will be easy for the developer to "code", lol, sad times.
Background:
1 of our clients have phoned up cut a long story short they had hired a developer who was going to work on their website and he wanted to take the hosting and website updates on so they wanted to end our services.
Heated converation with my boss and this new developer later over T&C's and everything was finialized. So he sent the details to FTP the files to a new hosting provider.
Today I get a message on my desk to phone, we shall call him Tom as it wont be fair to mock his real name, Tom as he was having difficulties with accessing the FTP. Honest to God I would never have expected what followed in a million years.
The converstation went something like this:
Me: Hi is Tom there?
Tom: Speaking
Me: Hi Tom I understand you are having some problems accessing the FTP?
Tom: Yeah entered the username and password but it says they are incorrect.
Me: Okay what are they are I'll check them
Tom: <Gives details>
Me: Strange they are correct, what host are you trying to connect to?
Tom: Don't know
To be honest that should have been my first clue, this is really unbelievable his job title is web developer.
Me: Okay well in the host section you need to enter <Give him IP address>
Tom: Is this on the website as I can't see it?
Me: What website?
Tom: Yours
Me: Sorry what?
Tom: Do I enter these on your websites login screen?
At this point I was trying so hard not to laugh, websites login screen, enter FTP details to access files via FTP, priceless. :lol:
Me: No you need to enter them into a FTP client.
Tom: O okay
Me: Have used an FTP client before?
Tom: No
Thats right people the first "Developer" I have ever met who has never used an FTP before in his life and got hired as a website developer. The rest of the conversation went about how to download an FTP client and then how to use one as he didn't even know what one was. We so need a wetting your self with laughter smilie as the lol one just doesn't do this justice.
As you can imagine Tom may then have to go and change his pants especially as he kept asking o and that will let me change the files right, well yeah but I would recommend you download them and use a editor, didn't want to make him wet his pants by saying HTML editor. :lol:
But basically he's a developer because he can setup a CMS, probably from a CPanel click of a button and has the ability to put a template onto a site. I'm going with via the CMS install setting.
O the best thing is the site he's now developing is a html static, :lol:
Dear lord I honestly got off the phone and called my boss to have a right laugh because he made such a big deal of it and everything to him. O brilliant. Made my day, Thats £100 right there, wont work but will be easy for the developer to "code", lol, sad times.
S
Squiddy
Guest
See, it's people like him who give those, like my self, without formal education a bad name. I learned about FTP clients years ago when I was about 17. He's just a lazy wannabe. Web Developer my arse!
Jazajay
Active Member
He's a web developer thats his job title.
But o yeah I know same here self tought all the way, when I left school I worked on the recycling trucks as a labourer as I had a little one, it was that that made me decide to better myself so I really know what you mean about that, that really does infuriate me. But as I say thats the differance between £100 and £1000 and there is a massive, massive differance in what the client gets, and I suppose a day and a week as well.
What annoys me though is that clients who go to him, and probably him himself, think that that is how things are meant to be, mmm......now I wonder why 10k sites a week get hacked? Why most startups fail and why the internets full of crap and slow useless copy cat sites? Also I wonder why a lot of clients expect cheap for good high end sites like ebay or TBH one of ours....o no wait I get it. Sorry took a while for the penny to drop. :lol:
But o yeah I know same here self tought all the way, when I left school I worked on the recycling trucks as a labourer as I had a little one, it was that that made me decide to better myself so I really know what you mean about that, that really does infuriate me. But as I say thats the differance between £100 and £1000 and there is a massive, massive differance in what the client gets, and I suppose a day and a week as well.
What annoys me though is that clients who go to him, and probably him himself, think that that is how things are meant to be, mmm......now I wonder why 10k sites a week get hacked? Why most startups fail and why the internets full of crap and slow useless copy cat sites? Also I wonder why a lot of clients expect cheap for good high end sites like ebay or TBH one of ours....o no wait I get it. Sorry took a while for the penny to drop. :lol:
S
Squiddy
Guest
I think it's just probability, when you look at humans on a global scale. It's pretty well known that we are a very lazy species when there is no immediate reason to act on something. So probability dictates that the easier something is, the greater chance there is someone having or doing that one thing. That could be a defective attitude towards life, which comes in many forms, such as being lazy or unable to motivate yourself or just expecting people to prioritise them over everyone else for no apparent reason (probably because that's what their used to). Learning things is always a chore for most people, unless like me you revel in the opportunity to advance yourself in some way so again, the chances are people won't have bothered learning something, whether that's how to run their business properly (because they think they don't need to learn about financing, trading legalities, operational structures etc)
I wouldn't say it's an exact rule of life but I believe it goes some way to explaining why sites costing £10k a week get hacked, why most startups fail and why the internet is full of crap, slow and useless copy cat sites and why a lot of clients expect cheap prices for high quality sites like ebay or one of ours.
I wouldn't say it's an exact rule of life but I believe it goes some way to explaining why sites costing £10k a week get hacked, why most startups fail and why the internet is full of crap, slow and useless copy cat sites and why a lot of clients expect cheap prices for high quality sites like ebay or one of ours.
Jazajay
Active Member
@Tom
O come on Tom nothing to be embarrsed about, I didn't know what an FTP was once upon a time either, its perfectly okay. I enjoyed helping you anyway. :lol:
@Squiddy
Yeah I guess, it is totally annoying. I meant 10,000 websites a week get hacked not websites over £10k.
O come on Tom nothing to be embarrsed about, I didn't know what an FTP was once upon a time either, its perfectly okay. I enjoyed helping you anyway. :lol:
@Squiddy
Yeah I guess, it is totally annoying. I meant 10,000 websites a week get hacked not websites over £10k.
Jazajay
Active Member
Squiddy check your PM I just read an old post of mine, you actually commented on it SunBurn where I litereally say just made HTML changes last night already page 1, thats less than 24 hours, the one that say position 2 if you now click it has the top 3 organics now. But that was just HTML changes don't do link building. Don't want to put the link on the main forum as I say monitoring visitor rates now as my dad now pays me a maintenance fee to keep it tip top so working my magic and all.
Jazajay
Active Member
Just got a reply which so made me think about this thread.
The client that went away after contacting me through a site I did has now come back saying they will be contacting me in a couple of weeks to go ahead with my cheapest option plan, which is the one I recommended to them for their business needs.
But point proven though I think about holding your ground on your self worth.
The client that went away after contacting me through a site I did has now come back saying they will be contacting me in a couple of weeks to go ahead with my cheapest option plan, which is the one I recommended to them for their business needs.
But point proven though I think about holding your ground on your self worth.