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Desperate client who are trying to resucitate their business

Discussion in 'Website Design Forum:' started by byronc, Oct 1, 2011.

  1. byronc

    byronc Member


    I have a client who sells visa services on their website - its a small home based business.

    Their business has dropped right off from two years ago when they were booming to 5 customers in a month.

    We did some seo on key words and they are at about 7th position first page.

    my questions are,

    1. Is there a huge difference in customers between 1st and 7th place?
    2. If we are trying to catch the uk in general should we be putting the local address on the site.
    3. They tried google ads but found it non-profitable.

    Could you tell me if there is anything glaringly wrong with this site?

    Is it unprofessional looking? Seo badly off?

    Any help appreciated

    Thanks [​IMG]
  2. NWD

    NWD Junior Member

    When you say the website is about 7th position on the first page of Google, for which key words?

    When I search for India Business Visa, for example, the website is on page 2.

    I don't think you have a problem with the website itself, it's fine.

    Also the local address is fine. As a business your client is required to have their address on their website and it increases customer confidence to know where the people are located that they're dealing with.

    Your meta description is repeating the words India and Visa. There is no need to do that. Use the words wisely and keep keyword combinations together if possible.

    So, for example:

    CHEAPEST FASTEST India Tourist Visa or Business Visa, Friendly, professional company. Registered agent of the Consulate of India in UK. Meet and Greet Visa Services to India.

    This is what you have at the moment:

    CHEAPEST FASTEST Tourist or Business Visa for India, Friendly Professional
    Meet and Greet Visa Services to India, India Visa, India Visas, Indian Visa ...

    Don't do that repetition of the words at the end, Google isn't daft ;)
  3. NWD

    NWD Junior Member

    Just to add, that business might have dropped off because less people are travelling to India than two years ago?

    Is there any information about that on the Internet?

    Might be worth checking what the visitor trends are.
  4. Jazajay

    Jazajay Active Member

    Yeah around 90% of traffic differance. Something stupid like 60%+ click the first 3 results alone so...yeah you could say a little.

    Depends where they are based, China for instance wont do them any good. But yes you should if they are in the UK, use the Hcard microformat when doing this as well.

    Yeah that could be down to geographical location, type of ads chosen, type of text chosen. You can pretty much throw money away dead easy with ads if you/the person who set it up doesn't know what they are doing.

    But here's one bit of a tip, well second, third even, bare in mind my time at work is £45/hour. :)
    <h1 id="logo">Visa<span class="green">services</span><span class="gray">limited</span></h1>
    This SEO, no, bad code, bad. This says Visaserviceslimited, not Visa Services Limited in your main H1 tag. Thats like saying mynamesdave and then wondering why people are calling you mynamesdave?

    Try this instead:

    <h1 id="logo">Visa <span class="green">services</span> <span class="gray">limited</span></h1>
    #logo span{margin-left:-10px}

    Until you close the gap.
    Same effect massive improvement. :D

    Is this a bad techniquie, debatable. I've submitted sites for far, far worse things text at less than 7px for example, thats unreadbale to the average user and its text that is just a long list of keywords at the bottom of the page never been banned, so....

    What keywords are you aiming for?
  5. rossnorthernunion

    rossnorthernunion Senior Member

    Maybe people don't want to pay for something which they can get for free?

    Standing in a queue?
  6. Jazajay

    Jazajay Active Member

    I all ways thought you had to pay for Visa's?
    Is that not the case?
  7. NWD

    NWD Junior Member

    use the Hcard microformat when doing this as well.

    Ummm . . . . you do know that's not going to make any difference to SEO?

    And also what you went on to say about H1 tags, that won't make any difference either?

    You do know that Google is cleverer than that don't you :confused:
  8. NWD

    NWD Junior Member

    Is this a bad techniquie, debatable. I've submitted sites for far, far worse things text at less than 7px for example, thats unreadbale to the average user and its text that is just a long list of keywords at the bottom of the page never been banned,

    Perhaps you could give us some examples of websites where you've done that and what results you've achieved on Google ?

    It's easy to say that these things but the proof of the pudding and all that . . . . . . .
  9. Levi

    Levi Moderator Staff Member

    ....gets the snacks ready and wait's for Jaz's reply, this is likely going to be a long read :)

    NWD - even I know google supports hcards in it's search results and I'm not a web developer/designer, it helps with 'location' based services for one thing. Note: Location based services are becoming very very in vogue especially on mobiles.

    link to a google statement
  10. NWD

    NWD Junior Member

    Yeah Google supports Hcards but . . . it makes no difference to SEO.

    Trust me ;)

    it helps with 'location' based services for one thing.

    Google places is better for that. Much better.

    Location based services are becoming very very in vogue especially on mobiles.

    Google can use GPS for that.
  11. Levi

    Levi Moderator Staff Member

    I don't think you understand how this location based services work.....

    You do know that Google places uses location based information gained from the addresses added to either google maps or via hcards to supply the information to the app on your phone....... All google places is is a front end for the location based services, ie it's just a branded webservice in the same way gmail is basically just webmail.

    Now you're probably thinking how does google places relate these addresses to your location. Well it's quite simple really:
    1) it first finds out your location via gps/wifi/3g towers
    2) It then relates your location to the search query (say petrol stations)
    3) then accesses the location data (taken from hcards/google map entries) stored on google's servers
    4) it then shows a list of petrol stations near your location with distance etc.

    Also don't forget that google search pages are location aware now if you enable it (left hand side - change location). I'll admit I need to manually assign my location but it does work.

    edit: useful read -
  12. Jazajay

    Jazajay Active Member

    Get some Pringles in. :D

    Okay before I go on with how great I am, yes I am arrogant, goes with the fact of just being overal great and egotiscal I think. What do search engines strive to accomplish?
    Your in the SEO business so this should be on the tip of your toungue, I hope. That being to understand the relationship of text to a users query at it's most basic core that is, in other words.......relevance of the document to the users query.

    Now Microformats in one way are a way for?....
    Any body? People at the back of the class perhaps?
    Machines to understand text/content via adding mark up to it.

    How do you think reviews are displayed in the results?
    Don't know, clearly by that way of thinking? :lol:

    Google for instance has 10k+factors please list them, as this is for you to answer and point out where code that can be used to mark up text so user agents can better display and understand it and its relationship with other elements wont be a factor?

    You may need several posts to list all 10k and I am expecting a list by the way, as you clearly know and can back that up. As you say "It's easy to say that these things but the proof of the pudding and all that ...."

    Also please list me the seperate factors that go into Google local listing positioning?
    Cough, cough. :D

    Yes I do know it is better than I, mmm....well.....but it has no idea on how to combat mozaic cloaking, don't use it know how to, but that is night mare to find and can take hours if you know how to accomplish it. And yes actually that H1 will especially since Panda as onpage is far more powerful now than it ever was.

    H1 tags are seriously important and thus having your term without spaces is doing no good at all as it's the main onpage factor, which is mega important even more so since Panda, after the title element.

    Dear lord I only have an hour for lunch of which I made some very nice scrambled egg. Will try and find the page out and get you some screen shots of results for you when I get in tonight and have time to waste.

    But the problem I think you are having is you are stuck in the old way of thinking.
    We don't do SEO we do conversion optimization of which SEO is a step of.

    Now whats the diverance?
    SEO is the tactic of driving traffic, doesn't matter what it is to a web page.
    Conversion Optimization is optimization the page to sell/contact for a specific product then driving only relevant traffic to that page that will then convert.

    The differance is a business that works over a business that gets loads of traffic but only converts 1% of users to a customer.

    Now the thing is with conversion rate optimization you don't really think about SEO.
    Because if someone is going to find your site for the term say pink dots.
    They will expect to see the term in the title element, in the headers not pinkdot I may add, as that could be a rock band an illness, it is far from pink dot.

    They expect the term in the content, they expect images of pink dots, and if the alt text follows the advice for people with disabilities people with disabilities will expect the page to read right, content will be marked up correctly, Microformats, again to aid in every way to push the page and surprisingly everything that has been done to help the user hits the Search Engines. But more importantly because it is geered to the user will hit long term factors that aren't even thought of and some of the 9900+ factors that are not even known.

    Sigh.....thats not even thinking outside of the box I may add. But SEO is old school, conversion rate optimization is the new way of thinking these days.

    If all you are doing is lobbing traffic at a site and not looking towards helping the client convert that traffic then you are ripping that site off.

    i would rather have 100 less visitors and a conversion rate of 30% than a hundred more and a conversion rate of 1% as the client will make more 30 times the amount of money from 100 less visitors and as a result so will I due to not only the SERP results I get them but also the increase in business tehy get which they see as a massive return on investment.

    I'll try and give you a proper post later, got to go lunch hour up, as I feel that TBH I haven't done this reply justice yet, but didn't want you to think I didn't have an answer to your remarks. :)


    I have to admit it needs work still in my eyes because if you search for the name it does return better results I find. But its getting there anyway.
  13. Levi

    Levi Moderator Staff Member

    I never said it was perfect, it picks me up as being in a location that's not even in the right county but that could be down to the isp ip data lol
  14. Jazajay

    Jazajay Active Member

    Yeah I hate it when it returns Birmingham USA results rather than Birmingham UK results, mute point as I'm not in Birmingham at all though, but it is rather annoying none the less. :lol:
  15. NWD

    NWD Junior Member


    Goodness that's a long post, too much for me to read :)

    Did it include some examples of websites that you've SEO'd and what you achieved?

    I didn't notice any at first glance but I did skim through ;)

    Here's one of mine for you.

    Google the word westies, just that one single word, and you'll find one of my websites there on page 1:

    Just a little website :cool:

    Now I do know my stuff when it comes to SEO. The OP asked about SEO and I replied using the experience I've gained over many years.

    We can argue the technicalities til the cows come home, but firstly I have to be careful what I say cos I don't want to give away too many of my hard earned SEO secrets ;)

    And secondly, results speak louder than a lot of technical irrelevance.
  16. NWD

    NWD Junior Member

    Oh and I'll just reply specifically to this one little bit:

    H1 tags are seriously important

    Nope. They make no difference at all.

    What you're missing is this, there are a lot of websites out there that aren't SEO'd properly at all. There are a lot of people who have created their own websites for example, and haven't used website companies.

    And in fact, one of my best performing websites was one of the first I built years ago before I really understood about SEO.

    You see, Google is clever, very clever ;)

    And all the SEO theory in the world doesn't take into account that Google compensates for badly SEO'd websites.

    That's all I'm going to say about that LOL ;)
  17. NWD

    NWD Junior Member

  18. NWD

    NWD Junior Member

    Arhhhhh just noticed another bit I can't ignore LOL

    SEO is old school, conversion rate optimization is the new way of thinking these days.

    If no-one can find your website you aint converting nuffink ;)
  19. Jazajay

    Jazajay Active Member

    Dear lord,
    1. That really wasn't long, I had to cut it short as I was on lunch as I could have gone on for a lot longer as to why you are wrong. But as your attention span is pretty short I will try to keep this one short...well (er).

    2 Someone answers your short sightedness its a courtesy to understand why you are wrong not just continue being wrong. :D

    3. I didn't ask you for any websites you have done, don't care TBH, but if you would like me to print them out and stick them on my fridge I will happily do so. :lol:
    Did ask you some other questions which I see you skipped on, cough didn't read. :)

    What not even since Panda, which means Google now values onpage a lot, lot more over off page factors than before? Really? Dear lord. :cry:

    Please list all 10k+ factors then, used by Google, then you can list the others search engines, if that's not on the list, you will be able to clearly back it up, proof is in the pudding and all. I know different due to just changing the H1 tag and noticing effects, especially since Panda.

    You will be able to convince me I'm being doing it wrong for such a while, I mean it I honestly can't wait. But enough said, really, bring in point 2. My personal one that I maintain is, his website alone has brought him enough business to take on 2 more extra members of staff at £350 a week wage and put another van on the road, with heated water systems in the middle of a down turn. Bare in mind its a local business in one city, and he doesn't even cover all of it, check out his guide page. Kind of proving my point that conversion optimization is both SEO and conversion optimization, as I haven't "SEO'd" a site in about a year when all the blogs I read convinced me to update my way of thinking and that SEO and conversion theory should be combined about January time,

    Last page I added to the above site took it a week to go to the top of 3 terms at least, I mean top. I followed conversion rate best practice and literal put it up linked to it in the sitemap and then did nothing, didn't need to. The very basics of that are write the content for the user, not the search engine's place it where users expect headings in the title element etc...1.3 weeks after I put the page live he had his first business hit which converted to a long term contract from the website.

    Didn't get any links to it, just based on content and conversion rate theory, sigh as I know you will mention it, if you read this far, a fly may enter the room, with a final onpage SEO check.

    All the terms for that site that count around 300+ last count pretty much saturated and most have top 3 organics and a few that I could be arsed to do have SERP domination on that's, around 6 out of the top 10 for the first page, and no you can find them yourself if you honestly care that much, or if you even know what that means and how to accomplish it, far too busy at the mo, writing posts, apparently, lol, dear lord I was in the middle or work, but thats all white hat, all my work is. :)

    But again shortsightedness is missing the point.
    No where did I say SEO was not important. What I said is the user is the most important factor/hinted at and thus by hitting the user to convert for a sale/contact will mean, if you follow conversion rate best practice, that you cover all the SEO points anyway but the page will be useable rather than well a good SEO'd page.If you then haven't, very unlikely, it would be the last step I would do before putting it live. But I wouldn't change wording purely to make it sound better for the search engines.

    How do I know what i am on about, as you pointed out yours, right i will do the same.
    Was a forum moderator on Search Engine Watch, haven't logged on there is an age, have enough problems finding time to get on here.

    Was one of the first cited about local listing and actual optimization for the locals back when it first started out.
    A week of starting at my new company, was put in charge of SEO and updated their processes as a result. My boss at my interview actually asked me advice as I am that sad, and yes I am and proud of.

    Did a SEO review for a well known national sofa company's website as well once upon a time. Even walked into one of their branches when I brought mine and smugly said to the Mrs at the time I did a SEO review on their website, to which she replied I know!

    But hay you probably gave up reading a while back.Strange you didn't read it a DF member sent me a message after saying how much do I charge for conversion rate optimization, to which I replied as they are a good member of the community, give me the site and I'll give you some tips for free. There is a few people on here who I would do that for.

    Guess it didn't make sense to them either, hay. :D

    Sorry if you nodded off, but I thought I would answer your points, in 1 thread, in depth and take the time to read all your comments.

    Agree to disagree as I honestly have a lot on at the min, otherwise I will argue to the cows come home, and I don't have any cows. :)
  20. NWD

    NWD Junior Member

    Goodness another very long post. Too much for me to read again ;)

    The window cleaning website though, bearing in mind that they didn't have a website before, if the business didn't expand after getting a website, then there would be something seriously wrong.

    All my websites generate business for my customers, that's what the website is for. There is no point having it otherwise.

    One of my customers moved from a home-based business into offices and took on more consultants after they got a website because of the increase in business. Some of my other customers rely almost totally on their websites to provide them with an income.

    So that's normal, I would expect that.

    I notice the area that Roger Needle operates in for commercial and retail wondow cleaning goes beyond the Sutton Coldfield area and into West Brom and Dudley.

    At the moment they are nowhere to be found on Google for:

    window cleaning dudley
    window cleaning west bromwich
    commercial window cleaning dudley
    commercial window cleaning west bromwich

    They should be there on page 1.

    If you'd like to know how to get them on page 1 for those searches just drop me a line.

    And the answer won't involve H1 tags ;)

    Listing all those towns/areas at the bottom of the page is a mistake.

    You're diluting your keywords doing that and anyway some of them are spelt incorrectly.

    In fact, you need to check out all the spelling errors on that website, there are a lot, and you shouldn't underline text that isn't a link, it's bad practice and confuses visitors,

    If you're charging a customer for a professional service then you need to provide that professional service, which you're not if the website has spelling errors.

    Hope that helps :)

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