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A serious problem with the services required forum.

Discussion in 'GDF Feedback & Help:' started by bigdave, Jan 18, 2011.

  1. Katedesign

    Katedesign Well-Known Member

    Have just picked up on this topic... some well made points. Design and print are both areas under downward price pressure and those who are good/experienced need, I feel, to resist this push. On first read Ian this looks like a sensible and thought out piece - perhaps we should have versions on our websites!!

    Perhaps a bit needs to be added about experienced designers producing (possibly) better print-ready files - which will keep the client's printer happy.... and also that with more experience the client might pay more per hour but the job may take less hours!

    Must read Ian's piece carefully now!
     
  2. bigdave

    bigdave Moderator Staff Member

    What about the bit about blood sucking leeched destroying the industry? :icon_wink:
     
  3. Ian Bonner

    Ian Bonner Member

    Of course! Please be my guest. Anything that will help. Damon asked me to contribute something as I agree with him it could help. By all means if anyone has something to add or dispute please do so. Anything that will help educate clients and explain why we do what we do, all the better I would think.


    :icon_biggrin:
     
  4. Ian Bonner

    Ian Bonner Member

    I would add that by the same token we don't want a client saying 'how come they can do that in an afternoon for x and you're charging x for it?'. They have to understand the difference between experience and quality between the two types of design styles.
     
  5. bigdave

    bigdave Moderator Staff Member

    Im not sure if I'm looking for problems where there aren't any but... I would perhaps be careful about adding the bit about experienced designers making better print ready files, as different printers have very different pdf requirements. Implying that a designer with 10 years experience would create a better pdf than one with 2 years could be somewhat misleading. How about rewording it to say something along the lines of Industry experienced designers being more likely to foresee potential obstacles within the project & work around them? That way it acknowledges the benefits and value of experience without upsetting anyone.
     
  6. Katedesign

    Katedesign Well-Known Member

    Absolutely - I was eating lunch at the time and wasn't really thinking exact wording. Having been on the print end of loads of files - those from webdesigners and inexperienced designers made me want to tear my hair out!
     
  7. bigdave

    bigdave Moderator Staff Member

    As a fellow print designer aren't these the most toe curluing things to see when you open suppled artwork:


    72dpi

    RGB


    :icon_cursing::icon_cursing:
     
  8. Katedesign

    Katedesign Well-Known Member

    and no bleeds.... two colour work done in CMYK (guess the Pantone!)... the list goes on!
     
  9. bigdave

    bigdave Moderator Staff Member

    Haha. Bleed?..... What's that?!... <vague_moronic_expression>

    I once offered to play count the f**king pixel (yeah I used the f word) with one 'marketing exec' when i saw their supplied artwork. They honestly didn't understand my problem. Why oh why does a design education not teach these people how to prep stuff properly!!
     
  10. Tony Hardy

    Tony Hardy Well-Known Member

    I love it when you're getting personal work done and they take you for idiots.
    I just had a backdrop made for my band...and I provided the files in typical Illustrator fashion.
    Because I had, I got a whopping discount.
    They said 'it's not often we get to deal with a client that knows how printing works'.
    Guess they were expecting a low-res JPEG.
     
  11. Ian Bonner

    Ian Bonner Member

    What is the general feeling in regards to what has been put on here recently? I think if we collaborate and get something on the boards, as Boss suggests as a sticky maybe, it might help get what we believe our work is worth.
     
  12. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

    Although I applaud the effort, I'm not at all sure that a lot of your first draft addresses the original issue as it seems a bit heavy on the detail of payment schedules and T&Cs which - quite legitimately - vary from business to business; it also references a way of working and level of engagement which I for one don't necessarily offer and which many of my clients (and I'm including the big ones who pay proper rates) don't necessarily want or expect. I don't think a lot of people want to pay a designer to engage in stuff like (for example) assessing competitors and - if I were being cynical - I'd say it could come across a bit like the sort of unnecessary stuff someone might include to justify a large fee. That's not necessarily to devalue it entirely as something a designer might like to do but my feeling is that someone engaging a pro designer might reasonably expect them to quickly grasp what's appropriate in a given environment as a result of their general design knowledge and professional experience.

    Professional, career designers charge professional rates for a professional job whereas beginners, amateurs and chancers charge giveaway rates for a sub-standard product and it's unreasonable for a client to expect anything from one side of the equation to be interchangable with its equivalent element from the other. Again, I'd underline the central idea that a brief is the starting point for setting a price and it's inappropriate to bundle the two together by inserting the 'limited budget' caveat prior to a proper design-led assessment of the likely work involved.

    In short, I think we should keep it general and not get bogged down in detail which sets expectations and/or offers a standard level of engagement which might either a) seem a bit onerous to the client or b) potentially exclude designers who work in different ways.

    All that said, I've never responded to a brief posted on the forum and don't have any plans to - just offering my two cents.
     
  13. Ian Bonner

    Ian Bonner Member

    I completely agree with you. I said when I originally posted it that it will take a bit of tweaking / things coming out / things going in. It was literally just a starting point and no-one else to be fair offered an alternative.

    Please, by all means someone have a go and maybe it can be better worded / structured than my effort. I was just trying to get the juices flowing really so other people would contribute.

    I for one and getting increasingly frustrated at posters asking for help with their limited budgets. I have done my bit and just wondered if someone else would like to have a go too to try and avoid these problems arising in the future. I am one of the 'noisiest' members in regards to this and I believe if I hadn't offered anything then maybe I should have just gone quietly.
     
  14. Arhiann

    Arhiann Member

    Surely every budget has a limit; that's the point of a budget isn't it.

    I take your point though, but I think in fairness you're looking in the wrong place for the kind of work that *you* want. This is a free to join forum, and ultimately most of the requests you'll see are just noise as far as you are concerned. I seem to recall reading a thread where Damon commented that you shouldn't try to compete with internet pricing and effectively that's what you're doing pitching for work here.

    Historically and traditionally (and I'm old enough to *just* remember process cameras and have very vivid memories of laying to foil), the design process, and indeed the printing process whilst not exclusively face to face deals, were very much in the main, localised processes. Sure there were exceptions for various reasons, notable specialism, *capability* and *budget* but in the main a local"ish designer/printer would be busy with local"ish" print/design work.

    Equally the entry level to do either kind of work was relatively high. Printing presses aren't cheap, and neither were Macs. The abscence though of either one of these does not preclue you from being a "printer" or a "designer".

    In simple terms the market for either is past saturation level. There is, no doubt, considerable excess capacity opitching for very little work. Economics 101 dictates that price will fall through the floor (and it has). The same goes for printing as well (though I do design as well - I've had a few full pagers in Sunday mags before now).

    I think you're wasting your time looking for premium work here. I would say the same about printing too; I pick up little from the forums though to be frank I don't try too hard as there are other far more profitable avenues to invest my time in. I think you need to go and seek it out rather than expect to find it here (though there's always going to be a an exception - I have had some interesting stuff off the forums but it's mainly leftfield stuff that resellers wouldn't have a clue about as they don't have the experience).
     
  15. Ian Bonner

    Ian Bonner Member

    I take your comments on board but as people on here would have seen I have never pitched for work on here, and unless something changed, I wouldn't. That has never been my intention. I source my work in other places. I think I have said that in a few of my posts. I come on here because I have experience in this field and like others on this forum, I try to help others when they need help, the same way I needed help when I started working in design.

    My problem is that some of the posters coming on here to request a designer do want something for next to nothing and although I do not pitch for work on here, I'm afraid that DOES have a knock on effect with work that I get offered to me and work that I pitch for away from forums.

    We ALL have limited budgets, ALL OF US. If someone offered you a print job for 75% off their normal quote, you would take it. The difference is, is that professional designers aren't offering these reductions, the clients are just coming on here and asking for and expecting them. If you pitch for a job and decide to give a reduced rate when you get the job, hey, that's down to you and that's fine. My problem is that these posters are expecting it before they even see any work.

    THAT is why I have written that post, so that we could educate the client to help them understand the work that goes into the design process. Unfortunately, the response I've had has been quite negative. I have tried to do something to help the problem that was arising on this forum. If people don't like it from now on I'll keep my mouth shut. I just hope that when the problem arises as a bigger picture in a few years time, we won't be all scraping by on minimum wage because of our own stupidity and ignorance.
     
  16. Stationery Direct

    Stationery Direct Administrator Staff Member

    O.k, been looking at this a little today, I think the points need to be made quickly and concise as nobody is going to read a massive thread. Take a look at the link below and have a read, what do you think?

    The points I want to make now are under YOUR DESIGN BUDGET, can somebody put a few together maybe using some of what Ian wrote? Although needs to be really condensed showing just the most important points similar to the ones in the FREE DESIGN WORK section above it.

    http://www.graphicdesignforums.co.u...e-read-before-posting-requests-important.html

    Thoughts?
     
  17. Ian Bonner

    Ian Bonner Member

    I think this is great Damon. My idea when I contributed my post was that it would be played around with / added to / condensed so it suited everyone. I never intended it to be used in its original form. I posted it to start the ball rolling and to try and get some ideas going. Of course I understand we all work differently, what works for one person won't work for another.

    If we can use it as a starting point and re-draft it to suit everyone it will at least inform the posters of a common design process. This coupled with Damon's piece will help the posters decide what they are after before they get to the point of choosing their designers. I don't see how it can't do anything but help.
    :icon_cheers:
     
  18. Stationery Direct

    Stationery Direct Administrator Staff Member

    Does anyone want to list a few of these points?
     
  19. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

    YOUR DESIGN BUDGET

    Everyone works to a budget but it won't be looked on favourably if the term 'limited budget' is used in an attempt to get work done on the cheap: on the GDF, as in life, if you don't have the money to pay for something, you shouldn't expect to be getting it any time soon. We would therefore encourage you to post details of the work you require and invite quotations and estimates based on a design-led assessment of the likely work involved.
     
  20. Ian Bonner

    Ian Bonner Member

    Excellent Dave L. :icon_thumbup:
     

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